[Beta][Cool] \m/ ~={ DEMONSTEELE }=~ \m/ - 0.9 desu~

[Jack Mackerel]

I really want to like this, I really do, but there a couple SERIOUS turnoffs for me so far with this:

Right now, as the mod is setup, you have to really be killing nonstop WITH THE KHARON, don't even bother with using the guns, to get access to a lot of the benefits that will keep you alive. Because of this, slaughter maps are really the only way to take full advantage of this mod, and I really do not like playing slaughter maps because I like to go slow and methodical with my playing. With the mod as its setup, with so much emphasis on use of the Kharon, playing 'normal', non-slaughter maps is only enjoyable with 'infinite soul meter' turned on, and I am NOT doing that for reasons of game principle. This leads into the next point.

The health token system. I now do not like this one bit because with you being forced to use the Kharon in order to reap souls to power all the special abilities and build up the upper-righthand meter, this means of course you simply cannot take a whole lot of punishment before your dead. Since guns kills do not give souls, that means death is very likely since you gotta hack and slash to build up souls and also then not willing to use the guns to not lose potential souls.

I noticed in previous videos that you did put in an option in development for souls from gun kills and DooM-style health. I and maybe a few others, may really appreciate it if you made those options available NOW, if as a standalone pack if needed, then the guns won't be completely useless, in my opinon, and your character can take a bit more punishment while trying to fill up the soul meter, when playing on NON-SLAUGHTER normal maps.

To be frank, you're looking for a different kinda .wad. This mod's kind of based on both versions of Shadow Warrior, where the katana was the emphasized weapon, and Terminus has repeatedly stated he'd prefer to emphasize Kharon above all else. Also, the mod balance was based on Scythe2, after all.

[iSpook]

I really want to like this, I really do, but there a couple SERIOUS turnoffs for me so far with this:

Right now, as the mod is setup, you have to really be killing nonstop WITH THE KHARON, don't even bother with using the guns, to get access to a lot of the benefits that will keep you alive. Because of this, slaughter maps are really the only way to take full advantage of this mod, and I really do not like playing slaughter maps because I like to go slow and methodical with my playing. With the mod as its setup, with so much emphasis on use of the Kharon, playing 'normal', non-slaughter maps is only enjoyable with 'infinite soul meter' turned on, and I am NOT doing that for reasons of game principle. This leads into the next point.

The health token system. I now do not like this one bit because with you being forced to use the Kharon in order to reap souls to power all the special abilities and build up the upper-righthand meter, this means of course you simply cannot take a whole lot of punishment before your dead. Since guns kills do not give souls, that means death is very likely since you gotta hack and slash to build up souls and also then not willing to use the guns to not lose potential souls.

I noticed in previous videos that you did put in an option in development for souls from gun kills and DooM-style health. I and maybe a few others, may really appreciate it if you made those options available NOW, if as a standalone pack if needed, then the guns won't be completely useless, in my opinon, and your character can take a bit more punishment while trying to fill up the soul meter, when playing on NON-SLAUGHTER normal maps.

It really sounds like you're not taking full advantage of what the mod gives you, as far as options that allow for you to kill projectiles... so this sounds less like an issue with the mod itself and more of a issue where you need to...

---

Git gud. :^)

[Matsilagi]

I really want to like this, I really do, but there a couple SERIOUS turnoffs for me so far with this:

Right now, as the mod is setup, you have to really be killing nonstop WITH THE KHARON, don't even bother with using the guns, to get access to a lot of the benefits that will keep you alive. Because of this, slaughter maps are really the only way to take full advantage of this mod, and I really do not like playing slaughter maps because I like to go slow and methodical with my playing. With the mod as its setup, with so much emphasis on use of the Kharon, playing 'normal', non-slaughter maps is only enjoyable with 'infinite soul meter' turned on, and I am NOT doing that for reasons of game principle. This leads into the next point.

The health token system. I now do not like this one bit because with you being forced to use the Kharon in order to reap souls to power all the special abilities and build up the upper-righthand meter, this means of course you simply cannot take a whole lot of punishment before your dead. Since guns kills do not give souls, that means death is very likely since you gotta hack and slash to build up souls and also then not willing to use the guns to not lose potential souls.

I noticed in previous videos that you did put in an option in development for souls from gun kills and DooM-style health. I and maybe a few others, may really appreciate it if you made those options available NOW, if as a standalone pack if needed, then the guns won't be completely useless, in my opinon, and your character can take a bit more punishment while trying to fill up the soul meter, when playing on NON-SLAUGHTER normal maps.

Your doing it wrong then.
I agree, going full Raiden and cutting everything on your way is fun, but when a map spams enemies (TNT's Prison), you have to use guns.
Also, the Omen is the best backup weapon for close combat area of effect.
The health token is interesting because, its just like the old health, the only difference is that the projectiles deals more health (that in format of a life system).

I love everything about this mod, i really wanted something fast and that didnt use guns, i just wished it worked on Hexen and Heretic tough.

[mumblemumble]

I gotcha now term, and i feel dumb. I didnt know you needed to swing with primary fire again to cancel out. Though if the double tap itself could cancel too that would be nicer, since holding fire and mashing a / d lets you special far more rapidly than hitting primary fire again, and hitting a / d as well every time. Just refer to your vid which you 2 shot a mastermind, that extra .4 seconds it takes per special (when done in succession) could add up. Then again maybe im a whiney bitch lol.

[Alteisen]

I really want to like this, I really do, but there a couple SERIOUS turnoffs for me so far with this:

Right now, as the mod is setup, you have to really be killing nonstop WITH THE KHARON, don't even bother with using the guns, to get access to a lot of the benefits that will keep you alive. Because of this, slaughter maps are really the only way to take full advantage of this mod, and I really do not like playing slaughter maps because I like to go slow and methodical with my playing. With the mod as its setup, with so much emphasis on use of the Kharon, playing 'normal', non-slaughter maps is only enjoyable with 'infinite soul meter' turned on, and I am NOT doing that for reasons of game principle. This leads into the next point.

The health token system. I now do not like this one bit because with you being forced to use the Kharon in order to reap souls to power all the special abilities and build up the upper-righthand meter, this means of course you simply cannot take a whole lot of punishment before your dead. Since guns kills do not give souls, that means death is very likely since you gotta hack and slash to build up souls and also then not willing to use the guns to not lose potential souls.

I noticed in previous videos that you did put in an option in development for souls from gun kills and DooM-style health. I and maybe a few others, may really appreciate it if you made those options available NOW, if as a standalone pack if needed, then the guns won't be completely useless, in my opinon, and your character can take a bit more punishment while trying to fill up the soul meter, when playing on NON-SLAUGHTER normal maps.

This was my first concern, but then I realized that I am not using the mod to the fullest. Like everyone says here, it takes time, getting used to the mechanic. It IS a melee-oriented mod like Red Steel game from Wii. Now with a bit of practice, I just completed TNT map in one go. I enjoyed the hell out of it.

My advice, get a gaming mouse and plot out your tactics and approach to every enemy type in the game. Use your firearms carefully and know when to use them, because like I said, it's a melee-oriented, fast-paced mod. If you snooze, you lose. And also, do not focus on your soul meter, it doesn't matter if its healthy or not. Know when to use a special attack, use it only when you have to.

[Captain J]

IN THE MEANTIME here have a little thing:

score system? at last, now i can play this mod with donpachi style.

[DoomKrakken]

I see.

I also found another arrogant weapon... a throwing knife of some sort. Is the special ability of the arrogant weapons supposed to be that they use no ammo?

Also, exactly why are they called "arrogant"?

[DoomKrakken]

I noticed in previous videos that you did put in an option in development for souls from gun kills and DooM-style health.

Gun kill reaping? Doom-style health? PLEASE YES! PLEEEEEAAAASSSE!

For the option to be available at least, that would be awesome. I do enjoy the arcade style health that the mod implements, but aesthetically speaking, it ain't realistic.

[HexaDoken]

stuff

As a person who was complaining about things being too hard a few pages ago but has been slowly getting used to the system and becoming able to take advantage of it, let me input a cent or two.

Because of this, slaughter maps are really the only way to take full advantage of this mod, and I really do not like playing slaughter maps because I like to go slow and methodical with my playing. With the mod as its setup, with so much emphasis on use of the Kharon, playing 'normal', non-slaughter maps is only enjoyable with 'infinite soul meter' turned on, and I am NOT doing that for reasons of game principle.

In actuality... I find that the issue is reverse.
So far, the mod has been faring worst for me exactly on slaughterfests. In them, you are either having no soul whatsoever and are constantly overwhelmed and reduced to spamming Exodus and having no way to realistically gain any soul, or you finally somehow manage to scramble a full meter, turn on Iron Maiden, and... obtain eternal god-like power. Forever. Ever. In slaughterfests, if you run out of soul while being the Maiden, you either afked a lot, got lost a lot, or you can't play for shit.

I'm currently playing with AV, which, in my opinion, is very far from a slaughterfest wad. I do not use guns much indeed, but this is not really because i need soul. I've found out that even with me severely limiting my usage of the Iron Maiden(which still ironically improves my total soul rather than the reverse), I am usually running around rich with soul. The reason I don't use the guns is because I do not find the need in them - why bother with them when I can cut down absolutely anything with Kharon just fine? All guns I really use is the Omen for an occassional close-range crowd control whack, and Frosthammer when things are just out of my range.

So no, I do not agree that guns are useless because you absolutely need to use Kharon to destroy everything. Guns are useless because Kharon is so much infinitely better at destroying everything, but you could realistically survive a non-slaughterfest mappack while barely resorting to using Kharon.

The health token system. I now do not like this one bit because with you being forced to use the Kharon in order to reap souls to power all the special abilities and build up the upper-righthand meter, this means of course you simply cannot take a whole lot of punishment before your dead.

I am so disagreeing with this. IF anything, the reason why I feel so overpowered in non-slaughterfests is because the health token system makes you incredibly more tanky.

Let's do some math here. Let's say that you charge headlong screaming into a pack of mancubi(let's say because you needed to use Omen on them). Let's say you wind up surrounded by three of them, and all decide to shoot you at point-blank range.

If you are using the standard Doom health system then... you get hit six times, each shot doing an average of 36 damage... you recieve 216 which is enough to kill you twice over.

In Demonsteele? You lose one token.

ONE TOKEN

You may have a mere 5 hp on Facing Hell(suddenly 12 if ramen is involved), but not only you take an 1 damage from everything, you also take a max of 1 damage per every 3 seconds or so. This makes you immeasurably more tanky than in normal doom - tactics that with the traditional health system would be downright suicidal are perfectly viable in DemonSteele.

ON TOP OF THAT, consider this - assuming Facing Hell, each health token is essentially 25% of your HP. A stimpack gives 1, and a medkit gives 2: stimpacks essentially become 2.5 times their normal worth, and medkits essentially become twice their normal worth. This means that you will have a LOT of excess health lying around, and since you can't die too quickly due to the mercy invincibility again, you can backtrack to them easily.

In other words, health tokens make you OP.

On a note somewhat unrelated with your post, they also make Omen OP.

Come to think of it. Assuming you constantly keep it up, it will have a 100-level charge readily available pretty damn often. A single 100-level charge is damn powerful, comparable to a single BFG shot. And you get them for free around every half-minute or so? Gunfights in DS are usually not prolonged enough to let Omen actually lose much charge as long as you remember to actually switch back to it(something I am guilty of doing, heh), meaning that Omen is essentially a free constantly regenerating ultimately powerful panic button.

It's only weakness? To use it, you must be in suicidal range.

This would be a very good weakness, if not for healthtokens ruining it again. Who cares about suicidal range, when, no matter what happens around, as long as you do not spend more than around 3 seconds in it you should lose only one hp?

Personally, once I'm done with AV, I'm suspending my playing of DemonSteele until the new version comes out, hoping that the traditional health system will bring balance in non-slaughterfest mappacks. I agree that releasing it now as stand-alone patch would be nice(still suspending because I am also sort of waiting for new features), though I do so for all the different reasons.

[Laggy]

have you tried playing on a harder difficulty?

[HexaDoken]

THERE IS NO HARDER DIFFICULTY
Unless you count that one where you don't get health tokens to begin with, but dunno, maybe some other time. If it allows you to get any overlife/armor tokens though(and if overlife tokens can be refilled by normal tokens the same way they can in normal), then I think I should be perfectly fine once I somehow get past level 1 without catching some random shot.

[Laggy]

Weird. I see a "killing machine" difficulty that gives you 2 tokens and then an "angel of death" difficulty with no tokens.

[Kaeoschassis]

I really want to like this, I really do, but there a couple SERIOUS turnoffs for me so far with this:

Right now, as the mod is setup, you have to really be killing nonstop WITH THE KHARON, don't even bother with using the guns, to get access to a lot of the benefits that will keep you alive. Because of this, slaughter maps are really the only way to take full advantage of this mod, and I really do not like playing slaughter maps because I like to go slow and methodical with my playing. With the mod as its setup, with so much emphasis on use of the Kharon, playing 'normal', non-slaughter maps is only enjoyable with 'infinite soul meter' turned on, and I am NOT doing that for reasons of game principle. This leads into the next point.

The health token system. I now do not like this one bit because with you being forced to use the Kharon in order to reap souls to power all the special abilities and build up the upper-righthand meter, this means of course you simply cannot take a whole lot of punishment before your dead. Since guns kills do not give souls, that means death is very likely since you gotta hack and slash to build up souls and also then not willing to use the guns to not lose potential souls.

I noticed in previous videos that you did put in an option in development for souls from gun kills and DooM-style health. I and maybe a few others, may really appreciate it if you made those options available NOW, if as a standalone pack if needed, then the guns won't be completely useless, in my opinon, and your character can take a bit more punishment while trying to fill up the soul meter, when playing on NON-SLAUGHTER normal maps.

As at least one other person has said, it's possible this just isn't the mod for you.
You say you want to like it, but you also say you want, and prefer, a slower-paced, more thoughtful game. That's uh, kind of the opposite of Demonsteele, right?
Not everyone is going to like every mod, and that's fine. Maybe if you play it some more you'll figure out things you hadn't yet, how to better use deflection and dodging, when and where to use guns and specials, and maybe it'll click with you. If it doesn't, that's cool, go play a different mod, or heck, work on your own. I know the author's said a few times that he likes to accommodate different playing styles, but at the end of the day, you can't make one game that works for absolutely everyone, and I'd personally rather he just make the mod that's most fun for him, since it's bound to work out a more passionate project that way. Just my two cents, there.

Meanwhile I just wanted to say the score system has me super excited. I think for me it's exactly what Demonsteele's been needing. Something to add a little more sense of achievement, something to work toward, however arbitrary. The second-to-second gameplay is already effing amazing, this is just icing on the cake.
I've been playing through the current build with Going Down recently and it's brilliant fun. You wouldn't think Demonsteele would work so well in such a small,confined mapset, but the abundance of enemies and the variable architecture (lots of windows, pillars to dance between, etc) makes for some really great fights. Highly recommend this combo for anyone who doesn't mind dying a few times.

[DoomKrakken]

It would be cool if the Soul Meter and the Kharon Power Meter were one and the same, where the Kharon grows stronger and faster as the meter fills up.

How does the sheath work? It seems to just be another bashing weapon, but so far, I seem to have found no use for it other than using it as a slower attack...

[Devianteist]

As far as things I suck at go, this mod takes the medal. I've never had so much fun being atrociously bad at something in my whole life. That's just weird, isn't it?

Great mod, and definitely one worthy of its award.