Duke Nukem 3D vs. Doom I and II

[oldschoolgamer1983]

I am not trying to make a game war or something(even thought from the subject's title sounds a lot like one) but, who do you think is more flexible when it comes to modding? Well, I love them both. But, for some reason I never was able to finish any of Duke Nukem 3D's episodes because of the fact that it got to many puzzles. Yeah, my brain hates puzzles. So don't judge it please. xD
Anyway. From my opinion Doom takes the cake actually. Even though Duke Nukem 3D is made from a modified Doom's Engine.
So what are your opinions games?

[wildweasel]

They both have their merits. Doom honestly has a more satisfying arsenal, since even though Duke's shotgun sounds more powerful and there's those fun pipebombs to use, the enemies have higher HP and this makes the guns feel too weak by comparison. For pure gameplay, Doom's maps also flow better, with fewer outright stoppages and ways to get lost.

Duke, on the other hand, has the advantage of people knowing better what to do with a 3D engine as far as actual _design_ goes. If Doom's maps pioneered levels that felt 3D, Duke's maps settled them. There's more things to do with height variation, like jumping, flying, throwing pipebombs over barriers, rooms over rooms (even if they are fake), and my favorite thing: interactivity. Blowing a hole in a wall is always fun, as is being able to press Use on things that aren't doors or switches just to see what happens.

Even though Duke Nukem 3D is made from a modified Doom's Engine.

Inspired by Doom's engine, maybe, but by no means actually based on it. Doom's source wouldn't be released until 1997, and Ken Silverman very much had his own ideas about how a 3D engine should work.

[oldschoolgamer1983]

They both have their merits. Doom honestly has a more satisfying arsenal, since even though Duke's shotgun sounds more powerful and there's those fun pipebombs to use, the enemies have higher HP and this makes the guns feel too weak by comparison. For pure gameplay, Doom's maps also flow better, with fewer outright stoppages and ways to get lost.

Totally agree with you here.

Duke, on the other hand, has the advantage of people knowing better what to do with a 3D engine as far as actual _design_ goes.

Indeed.

If Doom's maps pioneered levels that felt 3D, Duke's maps settled them.

Straight you are my young padawan.

There's more things to do with height variation, like jumping, flying, throwing pipebombs over barriers, rooms over rooms (even if they are fake), and my favorite thing: interactivity. Blowing a hole in a wall is always fun, as is being able to press Use on things that aren't doors or switches just to see what happens.

That is indeed an extra point for Duke. And don't you forget about the chicks. xD

Inspired by Doom's engine, maybe, but by no means actually based on it. Doom's source wouldn't be released until 1997, and Ken Silverman very much had his own ideas about how a 3D engine should work.

I kinda... Disagree with you on this point. Remember Noah's Ark 3D? The company who made the game Wisdom Tree they bought the source from the id Software. Which means you don't the specific source from a game to become a public release to be able to do it. With the necessary amount of cash anything is possible.

[wildweasel]

I kinda... Disagree with you on this point. Remember Noah's Ark 3D? The company who made the game Wisdom Tree they bought the source from the id Software. Which means you don't the specific source from a game to become a public release to be able to do it. With the necessary amount of cash anything is possible.

Uh...I'm not entirely sure you know what you're talking about here? Ken Silverman was not even 18 when he began to write the Build Engine. He would not have had the kind of money that Wisdom Tree had in order to license the Doom tech in 1994/1995.

[Rachael]

The Doom and Build source code are both publicly available and they are *NOTHING* alike.

There may have been similarities in the engines, but skin-deep is as deep as they go. Under the hood they're a whole different animal.

[oldschoolgamer1983]

Uh...I'm not entirely sure you know what you're talking about here? Ken Silverman was not even 18 when he began to write the Build Engine. He would not have had the kind of money that Wisdom Tree had in order to license the Doom tech in 1994/1995.

I was talking in general. About the money part.

The Doom and Build source code are both publicly available and they are *NOTHING* alike.

There may have been similarities in the engines, but skin-deep is as deep as they go. Under the hood they're a whole different animal.

Very true.

[Enjay]

I did a bit of Duke editing "back in the day" and I did appreciate the fact that the engine allowed lots of cunning things that were not possible in Doom maps. The ability to redefine actors was much more flexible than what was available in Doom at the time too (a proper definition language versus hacking with DEHACKED). However, Doom always felt simpler and more robust to edit. Nowadays, of course, almost all those cunning things and loads more besides are available in GZDoom.

One thing that I always found very awkward about Duke was the .ART format for graphics; difficult to use and illogically thrown together collections of images with apparently continuous sprite sets spread across different files.

As for the games themselves, I've never quite managed to put my finger on exactly what it is but I don't like the "feel" of the Build games. They all have something about them and I don't know what it is. A big part will be the engine and its physics but there is a commonality about the graphics in many of the games (even though they may be stylistically quite different) too. Like I said, I can't quite put my finger on it but something about the games just doesn't sit right with me.

[oldschoolgamer1983]

Nowadays, of course, almost all those cunning things and loads more besides are available in GZDoom.

Almost?

[Enjay]

Almost?

I think the obvious one is true moving sectors with the level of flexibility the ones in build had. It can be faked by a number of methods but a sector-based train carriage whizzing around a track carrying monsters and the player?

[Nash]

Blast from the past... (moving platforms start at 2:40)

[oldschoolgamer1983]

It can be faked by a number of methods but a sector-based train carriage whizzing around a track carrying monsters and the player?

Wow... I never thought about that. Might be true actually.

By the way. You meant something like this?

[Enjay]

Nah, that's cool and all but it's sprites and probably an altered player class. There's no attempt to make it look like the map geometry is moving like in this original Duke map (E3L5):



The video that Nash posted has some stuff that comes closer.

[oldschoolgamer1983]

The video that Nash posted has some stuff that comes closer.

Oh yeah.,, I remember that level. Last time I played the game was like 4 or 5 years ago. Never dared to play it again. For the reasons I mentioned in my post. xD

[60dollartechdemo]

My exact opinion in which is better varies with my mood. At the moment I'd say that I might actually prefer Duke just a little. I really like the level designs and sense of humor that the game has - and the weapons and power-ups are a lot more creative and fun. I agree that the puzzles are lame, but they never really bothered me *that* much.

Then again, I definitely find Blood to be better than Duke in almost every way - and if I happen to be in the mood for a classic shooter with less gimmicky level and weapon designs and a focus on atmosphere, I tend to lean towards Quake 1.

Doom and Duke are probably somewhere very close together in my list of top ten shooters, but I wouldn't call either of them my all-time favorite.

[oldschoolgamer1983]

Doom and Duke are probably somewhere very close together in my list of top ten shooters, but I wouldn't call either of them my all-time favorite.

You are right.