... And so theres the Blood problem.

[Crudux Cruo]

Blood Blood Blood... great game. excellent in just about every regard; i play this almost as much as I play doom, for over 7 years now, and the more I play it the more I realize this is just one of those games that ought to be remade. For longer than any other build game people have clung to playing and making mods for blood, and the release of its source code, but due to bureaucracy and legal nonsense, people have held onto a 15 year old source code for no apparent reason.

Even Jace Hall tried to pry it from the suits, but it didn't work, and so for all intents and purposes, the source code lies dead in the water.
So why bother talking about it? Its a good game, a REALLY good game, and so the question is: what can we do?

Many people stuck in this position have tried making mods and clones: zblood, zblood+ and recently, a blood copy for build, which is admirable in its efforts, though lackluster in its body.

Zblood+ is pretty much the only thing we've really got that comes close to a remake, yet it seems the creator of it has stepped away, and it seems most of the problem stems in the zdoom engine not being able to replicate enemy movement and behavior very well, and making the maps, which is very time consuming, and also cannot perfectly replicate build map configurations.

so that begs the question: is it worth creating a gzdoom based port of blood in the first place, and if so, what can the average joe do to move the process along?

http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f= ... it=+zblood

zblood + is the most stable, and accurate remake of blood to date. period.

[ThomsonI]

I'm guessing part of the reason GT et al. aren't letting anyone do anything that'd require them to be lenient with copyright is probably more of a lack of interest than any real plans after Blood II.

Going to GT's office with a shotgun, pitchfork, and voodoo doll would at least get their attention.

This guy is doing some weird hybrid engine that'll ultimately support Lucasarts's, Bethesda's, and Build's FPS games. Which made me go "no way" at first, but then I realized it's pretty much like supporting Mortal Kombat II, Donkey Kong Country, and Doom in one engine.

[Crudux Cruo]

The XL engine is definitely a contender, but i believe that ultimately it might be impossible to go across so many thresholds; considering outlaws and blood have no work on them to consider, it still remains to be seen. Lucius's main efforts are on DaggerXL (which im really psyched about). I suppose we'll have to wait and see, but certainly modding would require much more effort than either zdoom or build, both difficult enough. LUA type scripting language is harder, and C++ is much much harder if one intends to tweak the engine itself. I certainly look forward to his future developments.

[Minigunner]

Except it's not GT that holds the rights anymore; it's Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment that does. That fact alone oughta convince you that Blood's source code will never see the light of day.

[TheMightyHeracross]

I don't understand why a Blood source port can't be made. Remember this? (Probably)

The source code to that was lost. But if this:

Since the original source code to the game was lost by Rogue Entertainment, game engine recreations of Strife were created by Doom source port developers through reverse engineering, notably by Jānis Legzdiņš (author of the Doom source port Vavoom), Randy Heit (author of ZDoom), Samuel Villarreal (author of SvStrife) and James Haley (author with Samuel Villareal of Chocolate Strife). Except for the last, these projects allow high resolution video modes, better mouselook, and expanded modability.

can happen to Strife, why not Blood?
Sure, I'll bet that it's going to be a bit harder, but I don't see how it is impossible.

[Bitterman]

I don't understand why a Blood source port can't be made.

If I can recall, Monolith refused to release the source code, which has made it difficult to make a decent source port. One of the original developers did say he started working on a source port, but that was long ago.

I remember seeing Transfusion, some form of Blood created in the Darkplaces engine.

[The Zombie Killer]

a blood copy for build, which is admirable in its efforts, though lackluster in its body.

Are you talking about BloodCM/BloodTC?
If you are, please tell me how it is at all lackluster, it is extremely faithful and I don't see many inconsistencies except from sliding doors not using acceleration, although that's being added soon afaik.

Zblood+ is pretty much the only thing we've really got that comes close to a remake

Not really, Blood itself uses the Build engine, and while ZDoom has a hell of a lot of capability, you couldn't recreate blood 100%, believe me, I've looked at Blood's QAV files (animation data) and Blood uses a 100 tic animation system, while Doom uses 35. Not something easily noticable, but it would make the animations off by a few tics. The other problems you mentioned are quite true as well. Although enemy behavior could be emulated, it would just take a LOT of work.

I guess it could be worth it to make a GZDoom version of Blood, if you were willing to put the time into it.

[zuzma]

I agree it's extremely good. I'm pretty sure most of the problems with it are fixable with time / effort. If no one ever ports blood I've got my money on BloodCM. M210 is doing an amazing job on it, well when he has time to work on it anyway. : )

[Crudux Cruo]

yet it seems the creator of it has stepped away, and it seems most of the problem stems in the zdoom engine not being able to replicate enemy movement and behavior very well, and making the maps, which is very time consuming, and also cannot perfectly replicate build map configurations.

I agree, it would be impossible, but not necessarily a moot point.

Are you talking about BloodCM/BloodTC?
If you are, please tell me how it is at all lackluster, it is extremely faithful and I don't see many inconsistencies except from sliding doors not using acceleration, although that's being added soon afaik.

Well the first reason why is that it is a recreation by extrapolation, and by definition can never be 100% original, but the second reason why is that while it looks like blood, it most certainly does not play like it. you can light zombies up with flares on the ground, which move at -200% less speed, and are far less dangerous (on well done their health is almost like pink on the inside difficulty), you've got cultists and fanatics, who are far less agressive and go down easier as well... pretty much the FEEL that made blood BLOOD is missing. once again, its admirable, but it does not hold a candle to original blood.

The reason i say zblood + is the best hope is the difficulty is there, though the enemies still don't act alot like blood characters, and the author is making original content as well, which in my opinion is an improvement.

That's why i said what i said, not to spit on bloodtc, i believe it is fantastic for what it is, but it isnt blood, not truly. sorry.

[zuzma]

It doesn't feel like blood to you because the TC isn't even complete. There are enemies that still don't have any AI coded for them and there's probably bugs in the ones that have them. He probably hasn't even tested parts of it yet against the real game.

[TheMightyHeracross]

I don't understand why a Blood source port can't be made.

If I can recall, Monolith refused to release the source code, which has made it difficult to make a decent source port.

I knew someone would type this anyway. Yes, I do realize that the source code was never released. But neither was Strife's, since it is lost. People made source ports anyway through reverse engineering, like Vavoom, SvStrife, and ZDoom. My point was that a source port is possible, and while it might be difficult, it could still happen.
Now, if my logic is wrong, maybe a programmer could prove me wrong. But I think it's possible.

[XCVG]

Possible, yes. Easy, no. It took quite a bit of effort to reverse-engineer Strife, and ports range from worthless to acceptable. ZDoom's implementation is playable, but is missing things, and I don't think Chocolate Strife is complete. Haven't tried Vavoom or SvStrife.

When Strife was reverse-engineered, there was a baseline to work from. With Blood there is as well, but I don't know how much Blood differs from Duke3D compared to the differences between Strife and Doom.

[Player701]

Possible, yes. Easy, no. It took quite a bit of effort to reverse-engineer Strife, and ports range from worthless to acceptable. ZDoom's implementation is playable, but is missing things, and I don't think Chocolate Strife is complete. Haven't tried Vavoom or SvStrife.

When Strife was reverse-engineered, there was a baseline to work from. With Blood there is as well, but I don't know how much Blood differs from Duke3D compared to the differences between Strife and Doom.

Not meant to hijack the thread, but I always wanted to know about things missing in ZDoom's implementation of Strife. I've actually never played vanilla Strife - have I really missed something?

[TheMightyHeracross]

Possible, yes. Easy, no.

I know that it's not easy, again- my point was that it was possible. That's it. Never said it'd be easy, just comparing the scenario to Strife's.

[Crudux Cruo]

so this is the feature list from zblood plus, and frankly, i think i know why michaelis decided to stop; the maps. he did EVERYTHING ELSE, but the extra extra features, and finishing the maps, and of course balancing weapons.

To be expected:
 

All ZBlood levels

Obviously, of course, it is sort of priority. Finish polishing this damn thing. It should have happened a long, long ago. Unluckily, I had zero mapping skills at the time I began it, and by 'zero' I mean the one which is −273.15° on the Celsius scale.

More custom stuff (for progressive players)

You'll encounter more spiders, phantasms, cultists, zombies than there were back in the 1997. But there's never enough!

Tested multiplayer (for Blood purists)

Yes. I had never ever run ZDoom in multiplayer. The same goes for Blood. So, obviously, I wasn't able to test this thing. For multiplayer, all bets are off. It might magically work as is; but from my experience with it I can tell that it will need a separate debugging spree. And I can't really do anything about it on Cajun bot party.
But from what I've heard, it is a part of ZBlood that should not be ignored. Many people (weasel words FTW) play ZBlood because this is the best they can get as Blood-like multiplayer.

Maybe a custom level from me personally. No guarantee, though.

And maybe even a player class or two. You know, just to beat Blood 2. And time travel. Who doesn't like time travel? And full *.flac ambient soundtrack. And anime girls. And 3d-rips. And merchandising. And lolcats.

 

Not really to be expected, unless somebody wants to contribute it solely:

Blood palette

I've had enough with it not having too much. I don't see any difference in-game. I don't consider it important to any extent. If somebody does---I'll look into implementing his ready solution.

So basically, if people chipped in on maps, coding, and stuff like that, there could be a very real possibility of having a very satisfying blood-like mod for gzdoom. as it stands, its great. in my opinion, in priority of finish/potential, the list is as follows... Transfusion<Bloodcm<bloodxl<Zblood+<(original blood)

I add original blood for blood purists, as content is still being made, and there are a few good map packs and even weapon mods.
you can soup up your blood aiming with Bmouse .6 and run it along in dosbox, for good effect.

But i still feel a gzdoom remake is the best bet, and has proven to be very enjoyable through zblood +. while original doom and original blood are 5+ years apart and have totally different tech levels, ZDOOM as it stands now is much more competent than original build in many regards. sure, enemy movement, rendering, and map building isn't AS advanced, but as zblood + shows us, its good enough, and it provides a good amount of fun. at the same time, a remake should have some originality, and so if somehow the blood community and zdoom community could pull it together and collaborate, I truly believe that the sky's the limit potential wise.

If indeed anything ever happened like that, I would hop on that boat too and help. It would be an honor.