some compatibility stuff

[NeuralStunner]

Warning: Contains the (nigh tactless) opinion of the poster only.

Sometimes "bug puzzles" can be clever, but of course dated in this kind of case. For the sake of argument:

If you build your map around undocumented "features" that the player must know about and be able to use to complete your map, you probably deserve to have your project left in the dust. What does a player do who has never heard of wallrunning or thingrunning? Run for the door a few times in a vain attempt to get to it in time, probably give up eventually. Maybe in a rare case stumble upon the solution, and possibly figure out why it worked like it did.

Imagine a map requiring the humungous blast velocity bug unintentionally left in r2145, to cross a large gap? Obviously that map would be impossible now, as the bug was fixed. So: If something was an engine bug, why should the developer of an improived engine go out of their way to reintroduce it? If the map works "correctly" in vanilla, play it in vanilla.

Things like infinite actor height, no Z-checking for blasts, etc. are not such a big deal. Those don't really affect the mechanics much. I'm a little surprised wallrunning is even in compat options, as it warns: "It is not recommended to use this option unless some map absolutely requires it. As it depends on a bug it has serious side effects on the movement code and makes any fast movement become erratic." In such a case, I personally consider the map to be glitchy, and I'm going to pass on that option and go play another map instead...

Maybe it's just me, but I'm very careful to use things that are deliberate features. Then if something goes wrong, it's more likely I can get help.

TLDR Version: No need to thrash the engine further to reintroduce something that was a glitch to begin with. If the map must have that glitch to work, run vanilla if you're that obsessive about playing it!

[Graf Zahl]

This is something I also don't get.

Fine, exploiting bugs for speedruns is one thing but building a map around speedrunning tricks will only frustrate the player.

Case in point: Scythe 1. One of the later maps can only be solved with absolutely perfect command of speedrunning. It's impossible to play it normally. Consequently I haven't even tried finishing it because I consider the entire concept behind this map [censored word].

The same goes for thingbumping. Relying on it will only cause frustration but nothing worthwile because many players just don't know how to do it.

[printz]

@NeuralStunner: sometimes trick puzzles are an interesting part of the gameplay. Sure they're glitches, but they really help the speedrun demoscene, showing a really fast-reacting player (they're not as easy to pull up, because otherwise the id guys would have detected them). Some players may be used to play maps like this and prefer a map with such puzzles.

[Graf Zahl]

That may be - but it's inevitably limiting a map's appeal to a very small group,

[randi]

About point number 2: I have no idea when that changed, but it was apparently sometime in the last century, since people have been complaining about it since then. The problem with the physics code is that it's such a mess that if some vanilla behavior is unintentionally changed, it can be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to change it back if it isn't noticed quickly.

[Onslaught Six]

Warning: Contains the (nigh tactless) opinion of the poster only.

Sometimes "bug puzzles" can be clever, but of course dated in this kind of case. For the sake of argument:

If you build your map around undocumented "features" that the player must know about and be able to use to complete your map, you probably deserve to have your project left in the dust. What does a player do who has never heard of wallrunning or thingrunning? Run for the door a few times in a vain attempt to get to it in time, probably give up eventually. Maybe in a rare case stumble upon the solution, and possibly figure out why it worked like it did.

Imagine a map requiring the humungous blast velocity bug unintentionally left in r2145, to cross a large gap? Obviously that map would be impossible now, as the bug was fixed. So: If something was an engine bug, why should the developer of an improived engine go out of their way to reintroduce it? If the map works "correctly" in vanilla, play it in vanilla.

Things like infinite actor height, no Z-checking for blasts, etc. are not such a big deal. Those don't really affect the mechanics much. I'm a little surprised wallrunning is even in compat options, as it warns: "It is not recommended to use this option unless some map absolutely requires it. As it depends on a bug it has serious side effects on the movement code and makes any fast movement become erratic." In such a case, I personally consider the map to be glitchy, and I'm going to pass on that option and go play another map instead...

Maybe it's just me, but I'm very careful to use things that are deliberate features. Then if something goes wrong, it's more likely I can get help.

TLDR Version: No need to thrash the engine further to reintroduce something that was a glitch to begin with. If the map must have that glitch to work, run vanilla if you're that obsessive about playing it!

Indeed. In fact, I remember when I first learned about rocket jumping, and that some maps were intended, and in fact, 'relied' on knowing you could do this to beat the level, and I thought this was totally unfair. How was I supposed to know rocket jumping existed? It never occured to me to fire a rocket to 'hurt myself' because I generally regard that as a 'bad thing.'

[DaMan]

You know about RJ if taken the secret exit in E3M6.

[Gez]

In some early versions, you could activate the switch through the wall...

Anyway, it's also possible to reach it with straferunning.

[Enjay]

You know about RJ if taken the secret exit in E3M6.

Yeah, as Gez said, it doesn't actually require a RJ. Also, it's not quite the same, IMO, as having to use a special trick to complete a map. Yes, you do have to use a special trick (though not an engine bug) but you do so to gain a non-essential secret bonus. You do not have to use a special trick to allow you to continue to the end of the game.

[InsanityBringer]

Was the ability to activate the switch through the diagonal walls removed in zdoom? I've done it before

[Gez]

Maybe, but I think the walls being made a lot thicker is what's really responsible.

[TimeOfDeath]

Indeed. In fact, I remember when I first learned about rocket jumping, and that some maps were intended, and in fact, 'relied' on knowing you could do this to beat the level, and I thought this was totally unfair. How was I supposed to know rocket jumping existed? It never occured to me to fire a rocket to 'hurt myself' because I generally regard that as a 'bad thing.'

What maps are you referring to? If they were made by me, I always say in the text file if my map requires rocket jumping and I always include demos (if the maps weren't made by me, I'd like to know about them). imo, rocket jumping is seriously cool. If you got the skills, you can do some crazy stuff with it. While you're definitely limiting the map's appeal to a small group, building maps that require rocket jumping (or other things like the wallrunning, thing bumping, etc.) is fun for those who are interested in it, and I think it's nice that there are maps that exist with those sorts of things in them that show different sides of DOOM.

[TimeOfDeath]

By the way, I made some more rooms and finished BUMP.WAD - bump.zip
Have fun