ÆoD (6.06.02 (03-14-16))

[rico345]

Look's Cool!
However, Is there a map which Gameplay video is you make?

[Ichor]

I downloaded AEoD for the first time a few days ago, and played through vanilla Doom II as well as Scythe on Hardcore. Here's a bit of feedback:

- Ditch some of the shotguns, say, all but two shotguns and two super-shotguns. By map10 I had four (!) different single shotguns and the Quake II super-shotgun - three completely useless weapons I had to cycle through to get to the super-shotgun. At a minimum, replace them with more interesting variations on the shotgun theme - for instance, the Heretic crossbow.

Some people find a particular shotgun more useful and fun than others. I tend to use the heavy shotgun quite a bit because of the frag grenades. Not having that, I usually go with the sawed-off for quicker shots, and sometimes use the super shotgun if I need more power against close or large enemies.

- The freezethrower seems to weak to be a chaingun replacement, due to its very poor accuracy, tendency of the ice balls to refuse to fit through small openings, and the fact that frozen enemies block the gun from hitting enemies behind them.

There's nothing wrong with the accuracy. In fact, they can bounce off walls, which makes it good for hitting unseen enemies around corners. Also, the alt-fire is quite nice. I usually use it for that alone.

- The black hole generator: hell yes. I would never have beaten Scythe map30 without it. Other MVPs include the Wraithverge, Hand of Nova, and Boom Bunny (it's great fun to ambush the ambushers...)

That thing is very rare. I only found it twice and no enemy drops it, so consider yourself very fortunate there.

- The Doom 3 BFG is way too slow for the damage it deals. I'd rather have a super shotgun.

If you hold the button down to its maximum, then yeah it's slow. But just tapping the button will fire off a quick shot as well (four at a time before reloading).

- The spellbook is very cool, but the spells are too slow to cast to be useful in the heat of battle, especially since they have a chance of failing. Compare to the BFG or the Heresiarch's spells: for a similar wait, you kill one enemy or devastate an entire room, become temporarily invincible, launch long-lasting projectiles that hunt down your enemies, or summon help. These are worth waiting for! I'm not saying the existing spells are useless - but I wouldn't try using them in a tough fight unless they were much faster to cast.

They may be slow (except for drain), but their power more than makes up for that. A couple of chaos or defile spell shots can clear a crowded room. Also, the only spells that have a chance to fail are charm and terror (and only for the higher classes), and morph will always work on anything below a baron or arch-vile. Now drain was made faster than the rest because that one was too slow to be useful.

- This mod needs discs of repulsion. Lots of them. As common as hearts, even. They would help balance the fact that almost all high-level enemies have projectile attacks that instantly kill you, or do extreme damage, and add an extra element of skill to combat.

I suggested adding them for 4.0, but DBT said that it fouls up monster behavior somehow. However, I do agree that discs of repulsion are needed, so I'm trying to figure out a way to add them without any problems (I have an idea or two on that).

- Varying the strength of the various replacements for each enemy type is definitely a good thing. However, some new enemies are way harder than the both the enemy they replace and the other enemies of the same "class," and are probably overpowered:
Alien
Predator
Duke Nukem
? - Cloud that "shows you the light" by killing you instantly from across the map with a white beam.
Death (?) - Guy with scythe that flies around and shoots homing white projectiles that do extreme damage.
Weaver of Darkness (?) - Red guy who teleports around and shoots very fast fireballs at you that do extreme damage.
Fallen Angel (?) - Flies around and "unpurifies" you by killing you instantly with a blue beam. Is invincible most of the time.

Some enemies are more annoying than others, but there's a few that are unreasonably so and will be dealt with (however, I don't believethat any of those are on your list).

Some of the Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds replacements are also ridiculous. Here's a basic litmus test: if it's completely impossible to beat a Doom II level (such as, say, The Crusher or Tricks and Traps) from pistol start if one of them spawns, they're definitely overpowered. Some examples from my playthrough: Makron, the big angel that has two forms and shoots dozens of homing fireballs, Mastema, and Eidolon.

Yes, a few of them are quite challenging, but the harder and more rare ones drop some really cool stuff.

Some bosses dropping special weapons is a great feature. I was definitely happy when I got the Hand of Nova!

That's a fun one, although I usually prefer the Apocalypse out of those two.

[DBThanatos]

Very well, DBThanatos, I will keep playing, and not give you any particular balance points, unless someone else brings it up first, or it involves ammo usage.

I may be biased towards somethings though, because I play to have fun. God Mode allows me to relax and have fun. I don't know why Reilsss wants to convene the Hague war crimes Tribunal, but still.

I never knew having fun was a bad thing. I think that's what this boils down too. Also, you didn't explain why it seems like the resurrected monsters do much more damage.

No body said it's bad do have fun. And I specifically meant no more phoenix "feedback", that's all. I dont mind you giving me opinions, since I do take all opinions in count, but Im kind of tired of the phoenix issue and the reasons behind the phoenix hate.

Oh, and by the way, I never experienced the increased damage after resurrection of the monsters in that skill. I have tried even with the latest SVNs and nothing.

For saving space and time, I will answer into the quote

- Ditch some of the shotguns, say, all but two shotguns and two super-shotguns. By map10 I had four (!) different single shotguns and the Quake II super-shotgun - three completely useless weapons I had to cycle through to get to the super-shotgun. At a minimum, replace them with more interesting variations on the shotgun theme - for instance, the Heretic crossbow.
Actually, is impossible to get 4 single shotguns, since there are only two, just like two super shotguns. You might have confused them.

- The freezethrower seems to weak to be a chaingun replacement, due to its very poor accuracy, tendency of the ice balls to refuse to fit through small openings, and the fact that frozen enemies block the gun from hitting enemies behind them.
Well, is not a chaingun replacement, more like a plasma rifle replacement. The accuracy (just like almost every projectile based weapon) is practically perfect. The ice balls might be indeed big: I will check the code to see how big is it. About the frozen enemies, true, but the fact that you can stop a monster from being resurrected is a great advantage.

- The black hole generator: hell yes. I would never have beaten Scythe map30 without it. Other MVPs include the Wraithverge, Hand of Nova, and Boom Bunny (it's great fun to ambush the ambushers...)
Yeah, pretty nice weapon

- The Doom 3 BFG is way too slow for the damage it deals. I'd rather have a super shotgun.
Slowm the firing rate or the projectile? If the first, as pointed by ichor, you can tap the fire button and you'll get 4 consecutive shots, they might not be the strongest, but they are costing you little ammo. If by slow you meant the projectile speed, yeah, it is somewhat slow, not as much as it was before

- The spellbook is very cool, but the spells are too slow to cast to be useful in the heat of battle, especially since they have a chance of failing. Compare to the BFG or the Heresiarch's spells: for a similar wait, you kill one enemy or devastate an entire room, become temporarily invincible, launch long-lasting projectiles that hunt down your enemies, or summon help. These are worth waiting for! I'm not saying the existing spells are useless - but I wouldn't try using them in a tough fight unless they were much faster to cast.
Is all about strategy while playing. In some cases you would really need to get a decoy for some monsters, and that's where chaos comes. Or A monster is uber annoying, so, let's make it a chicken. A monster is quite fast, dangerous and is chasing you to melee you do death (like an alien or something), then use fear. All depends in situations.

- This mod needs discs of repulsion. Lots of them. As common as hearts, even. They would help balance the fact that almost all high-level enemies have projectile attacks that instantly kill you, or do extreme damage, and add an extra element of skill to combat.
Yeah, I agree. However, the reason why I never implemented them, is a reason that comes from the early days of AEoD. When I started to make the mod, I never considered such posibility; i made all the decorate I needed for monsters, weapons, effects, etc. What I never though (because I wasnt even aware that was possible at the time) is that the disc of repulsion, if ported into the mod, they would mess with a lot of stuff. A lot of visual effects depend in the fact that they are static (bormereth's fake fireball for example), so if a disc of repulsion is used in that moment, it breaks the "special effect" that the monster have (there are many cases like that, and worse). Is easy to put the flag "DONTBLAST" which stops an actor from being moved by the disc of repulsion, however, now take that into the massive amount of actors in aeod... is a lot of work that I havent got the guts to do (yet). At some point I will, but not sure when

- Varying the strength of the various replacements for each enemy type is definitely a good thing. However, some new enemies are way harder than the both the enemy they replace and the other enemies of the same "class," and are probably overpowered:
Alien
Predator
Duke Nukem
? - Cloud that "shows you the light" by killing you instantly from across the map with a white beam.
Death (?) - Guy with scythe that flies around and shoots homing white projectiles that do extreme damage.
Weaver of Darkness (?) - Red guy who teleports around and shoots very fast fireballs at you that do extreme damage.
Fallen Angel (?) - Flies around and "unpurifies" you by killing you instantly with a blue beam. Is invincible most of the time.
Well, fallen angel, I guess you mean the archvile one, if so: well, he isnt that bad, as soon as is vulnerable you can massacre him with a chaingun weapon.
In general, some monsters are designed to be specially annoying, since you get a lot of strong weapons to deal with. That's why most of the "too strong for it's class" generally never gets changed, at least in it's properties. What I might do is make them more rare to find.

Some of the Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds replacements are also ridiculous. Here's a basic litmus test: if it's completely impossible to beat a Doom II level (such as, say, The Crusher or Tricks and Traps) from pistol start if one of them spawns, they're definitely overpowered. Some examples from my playthrough: Makron, the big angel that has two forms and shoots dozens of homing fireballs, Mastema, and Eidolon.
All is about luck. Just like in every monster class, spidermasterminds and cyberdemons classes have the "most annoying" monsters inside.

Some bosses dropping special weapons is a great feature. I was definitely happy when I got the Hand of Nova!

[zitro]

Freezethrower is a plasmagun replacement? If so, maybe its primary fire could be increased 25% or so. Crystal Gun is a super shotgun replacement I think, and I find it more damaging and easier to use due to being small projectiles and being a bit homing.

[DBThanatos]

Well, I didnt make it stronger due to it's bouncing nature and the fact that you can shot 3 projectiles with a single crystal ammo unit. I will recheck all this

[DavidB1000]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you all saying that a monster that kills you in one hit with 200+ health is balanced? DBThanatos, you're not even trying!

I'll admit the Fallen Angel can be a pain in the ass, but the only attack of his that should have a chance of uber-killing you is if he reflects a BFG shot at point blank.

The lightning elemental, the ball that he mentioned, it really kills you that bad? You're lucky I've been playing on God-Mode if the damage is that far off. Otherwise I probably would have reshaped the Continent you live on.

As for the resurrecting monsters, it sure seems like they do more damage than their counter-parts. Hmm, I did another run. I suppose it's because I'm not used to the rather huge damage. Didn't you say that the damage on the Sixth difficulty is less than even the first? Because if that's so, then you need a massive reshaping of difficulty here.

At the moment, my skills are pretty low, but even so, I can play the entire Episode 1 on ITTYD without dying. If the difficulty here even on the lowest settings is still higher than hell, you really will need to look at a reshaping of all difficulties. Since there is no baby mode here.

I mean, it is your mod, but don't start complaining when I give suggestions to play on God Mode. This goes to you too, Reilsss. And Ichor even. Or even editing playerclass to give yourself immunity to most damage types.

Okay, I've been playing a little on Vanilla Doom 2 with AEOD, and on newbie, the damage is less than on the sixth difficulty. Although, 9 monsters on the first level? Is that right, because level 2 has 48 or so.

Um, is the crystal gun supposed to have splash damage? Because if I use it at anything close to me, like a demon or something in melee range, it does damage to me. WTF? I'm using a really badly designed cold damage weapon, aren't I?

[zitro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you all saying that a monster that kills you in one hit with 200+ health is balanced? DBThanatos, you're not even trying!

yes. and that's the damage it does in 4th difficulty. In 3rd, i remember cases where I survived a shot with no armor. The angel fights predictably, and its fast shots can be avoided with strafing movements and if you're smart to save machinegun ammo, you can kill it without difficulty

I'll admit the Fallen Angel can be a pain in the ass, but the only attack of his that should have a chance of uber-killing you is if he reflects a BFG shot at point blank.

You're talking as if you know exactly what should be done, it comes off as arrogant and as if the coders don't know what they're doing. If you were a skilled player, you'll find that you can even kill an angel with a shotgun, given you're patient and have room ... I can, and I can predict at least a third in here play better than me.

The lightning elemental, the ball that he mentioned, it really kills you that bad? You're lucky I've been playing on God-Mode if the damage is that far off. Otherwise I probably would have reshaped the Continent you live on.

In 2nd-3rd, the damage varied around 40-90. Pretty dangerous and hard to avoid shots. IMO the only unbalanced elemental is the air elemental

As for the resurrecting monsters, it sure seems like they do more damage than their counter-parts. Hmm, I did another run. I suppose it's because I'm not used to the rather huge damage. Didn't you say that the damage on the Sixth difficulty is less than even the first? Because if that's so, then you need a massive reshaping of difficulty here.

He's sure it's a bit less, but even so, this is not a game where you lose 1hp per bullet, u know?

At the moment, my skills are pretty low, but even so, I can play the entire Episode 1 on ITTYD without dying. If the difficulty here even on the lowest settings is still higher than hell, you really will need to look at a reshaping of all difficulties. Since there is no baby mode here.

man, my dad's first try (in AEOD 2.0 I think) in MM, he beat it (tho challenging for him) and the only experience he had with shooters was to play without mouse several years ago at doom/wolfestein. 1st difficulty is not bad at all, considering the 1st difficulty of some modern shooters (try the first Half Life). I do have a suggestion for difficulty reshaping tho: I wish he would create a difficulty between 1st and 2nd as the difference between them is enormous

I mean, it is your mod, but don't start complaining when I give suggestions to play on God Mode. This goes to you too, Reilsss. And Ichor even. Or even editing playerclass to give yourself immunity to most damage types.

you need to realize that sometimes you're the only one complaining about something while others think it's fine and that you should consider changing your tone because you're appearing like someone who wants everything to fit your unusual type of play since you're complaining about stuff we together said it was fine. Also, many of us are better players than you probably think, since we can get past archangels and other difficult monsters. Stop repeating the same types of complaints, you're talking too much

why give suggestions to edit to give immunity to some damage types? that's incredibly ridiculous and I hope it wasn't the 4324th time you're referring to as a phoenix, because it comes off as 'trolling'

I'm sorry for the tone, but you basically got nothing new to say. Let's not fill up this thread with unimportant debating that's similar to stuff in previous pages

well, and to reply to DBT, my opinion is mostly because when there is a plasmagun and it's the freezing weapon, I feel disappointed as it wasn't something else. It's a very hard to use weapon because the projectiles are very thick and hit on walls, corners of windows, or already frozen enemies. The secondary attack is similar to flamethrower but a bit weaker and consumes massive ammo. I preferred when it was a standard basic weapon in the past that you got from those terrorist-looking guys.

I also feel rockets are a bit plentiful. considering the rocket spots also give other ammo types, a box gives 10 rockets instead of the original 5. Therefore, it's a bit easy to take advantage using granade's alt-fire against difficult enemies early in the game.

I have an odd idea and it probably won't work. You know how in so many megawads, you end up with maps of shooting at a hole, which usually don't work well in AEOD due to the hp of it being like 2,000%? (exceptions being scythe, doom2, and plutonia) is it possible to make a lvl30 map that overrides lvl30 maps in megawads? Maybe to put an arena and fight a specifically designed monster with lets say 30000hp (about 10X the hp of a spider mastermind)

[DavidB1000]

Firefox crashed....

Um, the first thing. I'm not the only one, hello, did you see the post by Evanoa, or however it's spelled? So don't be saying I'm the only one complaining. That's arrogant.

If I was arrogant, you would know. Trust me.

So far I'm playing on newbie and not dying or getting close once, so I'd have to say the sixth difficulty is definitely more damaging then the easiest. Even though Doom 2 itself probably is easier than MM1.
I even took out whatever version of Redneck rampage's protaganist that replaces the aranchrotron or whatever that replaces the spider-mastermind on the crusher, in one hit with a slightly charged up scarab staff shot.

All in all, I know how game balance is hard. and I know how difficult this mod is supposed to be. But keep in mind my responses are only based on what Evanoa (sp?) said.
I'm sorry to say that nothing should do above 200 damage a shot unless it replaces something like an Spider Mastermind or a Cyber-demon.

I know balance. Don't think this mod is for Contra fans as well.
There should always be an easy balancing task. Damage should not be extreme except on extreme difficulties. Nightmare, etc. Nothing lower.

We are not all as good as you, Zitro, and I'm sure there are people better than you who might agree with me.
As for editing/God-Mode I was kind of being silly based on how crazy the damage seemed.

Look at it this way, he who writes in red that blinds my eyes, no, really, stop it, please, I know jack about ACS/decorate editing, otherwise I would have set the AeoD marine playerclass to something around damage reduction 99% from everything. OR you know, replace the player with the DBT himself.

Now that would be less fun than even god mode, I'd say.
Bottom line, I know how difficulty is balanced. Over 200 damage is not a balance period, ever on anything but the extreme difficulties. Not even for this mod. So, saying high damage is balanced at all, is kind of awkward at best.

I mean, am I playing Doom, or am I playing Radien/R-type/Grandia/Contra1,2,3,4,5,6etc?
Balance is a difficult task, but if DBThanatos is willing, I will throw out ideas. Hey, anything to stop me from playing on God mode, right? Cause you and I might have some same ideas on balance.
What's the worst that could happen, DBThanatos agrees with something I say?
Not as bad as if I had a couple of planet killer nukes,(Technically, this could be achieved by 2675 AD if we keep developing weaponry, probably have to be about 40,000,000 gigatons though.) now would it.

[oODemonologistOo]

May I ask, why did you replace BFG10k's art with BFG9k's ? It was good the way it was (IMO)

[Ethril]

- The freezethrower seems to weak to be a chaingun replacement, due to its very poor accuracy, tendency of the ice balls to refuse to fit through small openings, and the fact that frozen enemies block the gun from hitting enemies behind them.

Meh, I don't mind it that much, it helps to be able to stop enemies from being resurrected, especially those annoying Quake zombies that resurrect themselves unless you gib them... Freezethrower works well for them when you don't have explosives.

Also, IIRC the freezethrower has an altfire that acts more like a flamethrower (but with ice, of course). I find that mode to be more fun, personally. Better for crowd control, at least.

[DBThanatos]

I'm sorry to say that nothing should do above 200 damage a shot unless it replaces something like an Spider Mastermind or a Cyber-demon.


...


Bottom line, I know how difficulty is balanced. Over 200 damage is not a balance period, ever on anything but the extreme difficulties. Not even for this mod. So, saying high damage is balanced at all, is kind of awkward at best.

You say so. I think otherwise.

Balance is a difficult task, but if DBThanatos is willing, I will throw out ideas. Hey, anything to stop me from playing on God mode, right? Cause you and I might have some same ideas on balance.

No. I have clearly stated it before: Im not trying to make you stop from using cheats. I just asked you to drop certain subject.
As for the new "nothing should do over 200 damage", that's still pretty lame as an argument. While the mod isnt perfect, I didnt throw random numbers to the damage of monsters. If something is strong, is for a reason (unless is a typo in the code). Also, you are still ignoring everything else the mod offers. There are powerups for a reason, monsters drop hearts for a reason, the armor shards and health bonus gives more than the regular doom's, so does the soulsphere replacement, so the armor's absorption. AEoD balance isnt just like saying "it damages 50%-100% of your health, so is unbalanced", there are many factors to think about, and if they are skipped, is impossible to reach an agreement about balance.

May I ask, why did you replace BFG10k's art with BFG9k's ? It was good the way it was (IMO)

If you mean I replaced what used to look like the bfg9k for the 10k, it isnt just that. Both weapons were fused. Primary fire is BFG9k, secondary 10k. It was to save weapon slots

I will reply to the other suggestions soon. Im starving

[evouga]

It's true that many of the enemies I mentioned aren't that hard if you have a lot of health, ammo, and cover. The problem, however, is that many WAD authors, even those of tame WADs like the Doom 2 IWAD, made assumptions, such as that the player with a berserk fist can take on a Pain Elemental in close quarters and survive. Try that with AEoD turned on and you die horribly.

I'm no Doom God, but I don't think I completely suck either, so here's a challenge you can try yourself: run AEoD with -warp 23 -skill 4, and see how far you can get.

If AEoD is only meant to be played with certain Megawads starting from Map 1, that's fair enough. Running into high-powered enemies isn't too bad if you have ammo from previous levels, with the caveat that, ie, Tricks and Traps can be completely impossible to beat depending on who gets spawned as the Cyberdemon, and what BFG you get/what weapons you picked up in maps 0-7.

[zitro]

It's true that many of the enemies I mentioned aren't that hard if you have a lot of health, ammo, and cover. The problem, however, is that many WAD authors, even those of tame WADs like the Doom 2 IWAD, made assumptions, such as that the player with a berserk fist can take on a Pain Elemental in close quarters and survive. Try that with AEoD turned on and you die horribly.

I'm no Doom God, but I don't think I completely suck either, so here's a challenge you can try yourself: run AEoD with -warp 23 -skill 4, and see how far you can get.

If AEoD is only meant to be played with certain Megawads starting from Map 1, that's fair enough. Running into high-powered enemies isn't too bad if you have ammo from previous levels, with the caveat that, ie, Tricks and Traps can be completely impossible to beat depending on who gets spawned as the Cyberdemon, and what BFG you get/what weapons you picked up in maps 0-7.

ultraviolence is actually 3rd difficulty here. 4th is substantially harder. Try to play on the equivalent to ultraviolence (it's still harder than regular doom) until you get the hang of it.

tho your argument stands if you're pretty unlucky and I brought this argument to the thread before. I just don't feel it's right (IMO) that you have a low probability of getting an incredibly difficult boss (Paula, DBT, DBT pet, Black Minotaur, Eidolon, etc) but I realized that it seemed the majority liked it this way.

[DBThanatos]

It's true that many of the enemies I mentioned aren't that hard if you have a lot of health, ammo, and cover. The problem, however, is that many WAD authors, even those of tame WADs like the Doom 2 IWAD, made assumptions, such as that the player with a berserk fist can take on a Pain Elemental in close quarters and survive. Try that with AEoD turned on and you die horribly.

I'm no Doom God, but I don't think I completely suck either, so here's a challenge you can try yourself: run AEoD with -warp 23 -skill 4, and see how far you can get.

If AEoD is only meant to be played with certain Megawads starting from Map 1, that's fair enough. Running into high-powered enemies isn't too bad if you have ammo from previous levels, with the caveat that, ie, Tricks and Traps can be completely impossible to beat depending on who gets spawned as the Cyberdemon, and what BFG you get/what weapons you picked up in maps 0-7.

Well, it is indeed pretty hard to play certain levels from pistol, and I am sure that some others will be just impossible. However, and I never mentioned this, AEoD isnt really made to be played in that way for the exposed reasons. It works well when you travel through all the levels gathering ammo, weapons, powerups etc, but from pistol... well, that's a challenge
So, yes, I will specify in the readme and the 1st post that the mod is not very friendly with pistol starts in levels other than the 1st. Good observation.

tho your argument stands if you're pretty unlucky and I brought this argument to the thread before. I just don't feel it's right (IMO) that you have a low probability of getting an incredibly difficult boss (Paula, DBT, DBT pet, Black Minotaur, Eidolon, etc) but I realized that it seemed the majority liked it this way.

Sorry, I didnt fully understand the last part. You mean that those monsters shouldnt be there? or (i doubt this ) that those monsters should not be harder to find that the average?

I believe you do mean the 1st, and being that the case, well, I dont have great arguments about it, just that I felt like this was needed: Extremely hard monsters that in one way or another, would cause a shock into the player (like the few "easter egg" monsters, that when found, you either say "haha, funny looking monster" or "ohh shit! D: "). Still, I really tried to make a couple of the mentioned extremely hard to find, and by that I mean that you must have an awful luck, yet, if you beat them, you'll get something, might not be the greatest, but at least isnt like killing a standard cyberdemon and getting nothing from it.

Look's Cool!
However, Is there a map which Gameplay video is you make?

If the question was something like "what was the wad you used in your videos?", then I can answer: For "hobbs end horror" is Hellcore 2.0, for the other videos I have around, is "Scythe 2"


By the way, I have checked the freezethrower primary fire projectile, and it doesnt have defined the height nor radius, giving them the defaults (im not sure what's the default for those properties, but they are indeed too big for regular projectiles). Im going to change it

[zitro]

Sorry, I didnt fully understand the last part. You mean that those monsters shouldnt be there? or (i doubt this ) that those monsters should not be harder to find that the average?

Actually neither. Just that even if one is rare, it would not be so hard that you get stuck in the game (I found Paula twice, tho in one I managed to beat her ... I also found mmmm you, and couldn't get to damage you and found myself slaughtered quickly) ... maybe I shouldn't have included the black minotaur or eidolon on my list as their hp are not high and with a couple of items you can kill them with ease.

or use those enemies in the idea I gave in a previous post, but I don't think it's possible to override lvl30s in megawads or make coding so that only the hardest 2-3 may appear (DBT, Giant Lich)

Regardless of that idea, what do you think of lvl30s ... I personally loath them and only a couple are playable thru this mod (Doom2, Plutonia, Scythe) ... is there any way to make lvl30s enjoyable?

am I the only one who loathes the idea of beating a game by shooting rockets at a hole at specific angles? Only Plutonia was fun in that sense as you could aim it from anywhere.