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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

Eevee: Randy announced a long time ago that he wanted to make a new engine from the ground up. The intent was to provide compatibility with old ZDoom maps while introducing an accurate true-3D engine that isn't prone to the countless bugs and oddities of the current engine. But, that's probably quite a ways off. :)

Regarding the 3D models, I don't think it's impossible to make good models of the Doom enemies if they players accept that they're never going to look exactly like the sprites. Since you can see models from any angle imaginable, they just won't feel "old school." I think the real problem, however, is that the models that have been made are just too low-polycount to do the originals justice. Trying to squeeze a demon into ... what... 30 polys? just doesn't cut it. Damn thing looks like a paper sack with arms.

id is obviously dealing with the challenge of realizing the Doom monsters in 3D with Doom 3. Obviously they've taken artistic license and many of the monsters look much different than before, but I don't think you'll find many people who'll tell you those models aren't some quality shit.
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Eevee
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Post by Eevee »

HotWax wrote:Eevee: Randy announced a long time ago that he wanted to make a new engine from the ground up. The intent was to provide compatibility with old ZDoom maps while introducing an accurate true-3D engine that isn't prone to the countless bugs and oddities of the current engine. But, that's probably quite a ways off. :)
I think I vaguely remember seeing the uberalpha of that.. about a zillion years ago.
HotWax wrote:Regarding the 3D models, I don't think it's impossible to make good models of the Doom enemies if they players accept that they're never going to look exactly like the sprites. Since you can see models from any angle imaginable, they just won't feel "old school." I think the real problem, however, is that the models that have been made are just too low-polycount to do the originals justice. Trying to squeeze a demon into ... what... 30 polys? just doesn't cut it. Damn thing looks like a paper sack with arms.
I'm more worried that time will be devoted into things like making new models instead of actual USEFUL things (like true 3D) that really affect gameplay. well-done models would be pretty, yes... but if all I wanted was pretty I'd go play Quake II :P
HotWax wrote:id is obviously dealing with the challenge of realizing the Doom monsters in 3D with Doom 3. Obviously they've taken artistic license and many of the monsters look much different than before, but I don't think you'll find many people who'll tell you those models aren't some quality shit.
Those models are fricking insane. I don't know if I mean that in a good way or a bad way.

They sure as hell made the imps different; I don't remember the things being able to practically teleport across the room at you and claw you to pixels.
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Kate
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Post by Kate »

HotWax wrote:Damn thing looks like a paper sack with arms.
That is, a pink paper sack that hasn't brushed it's teeth for quite a while
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Chilvence
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Post by Chilvence »

Eevee wrote:I'm more worried that time will be devoted into things like making new models instead of actual USEFUL things (like true 3D) that really affect gameplay. well-done models would be pretty, yes... but if all I wanted was pretty I'd go play Quake II :P
This is what I dont get, its obviously going to be different people who take on these tasks - I couldnt program a 3d engine if you put a gun to my mothers head, neither would I have the imagination or the eye for architecture to put it to use - but I'm quite at ease making models (actually I'm not so great at that either but.... at least I know something about it :D)
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

That's pretty typical in any gaming development. That's why the credits for Doom don't read "Programmer/Artist/Music/Map Design/Testing: John Carmack" :D
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cccp_leha
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Post by cccp_leha »

Mundungu wrote:Is sector over sector that big a deal to you people? Why aren't you messing with Unreal or Quake instead then? Neither requires much of a system to run...
IMO, Quake looks like shit and Unreal dosen't feel right :?. Anything beyond that (read: Half-Life) is beyond me (probably isn't, I just can't get around to learning it).
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

Editting in 3D is a pretty big jump, but once you learn the editor (as with pretty much anything) it becomes natural. In some ways it's alot less of a headache than editting ZDoom, as you don't have to worry about slope specials, and you're free to do whatever you like to the ceiling without affecting the floor below it. The lighting is also done for you, as well. And of course, there's alot more freedom when you're dealing with a true 3D environment.
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Post by Eevee »

Mundungu wrote:Is sector over sector that big a deal to you people? Why aren't you messing with Unreal or Quake instead then? Neither requires much of a system to run...
Partly because Quake looks like crap and I don't have Unreal. The other part is that ZDoom *does* stuff; most of the map for true-3D games seem to just be pretty decorations to look at while you shoot things, plus maybe bouncepads and teleporters. ZDoom.. DOES stuff. Of course, I could be horribly wrong, having never really played with any true3D engine editors..
Chilvence wrote:This is what I dont get, its obviously going to be different people who take on these tasks
I'm thinking more from the standpoint of how ZDoom is going right now ^^; or how I'd do it. or something.
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

I'll speak from the standpoint of Quake 3 since that's the true-3D engine I have the most experience editting in.

In (stock) Q3, you can basically place 3 types of things: Brushes (The actual level geometry -- solid stationary stuff like walls, floors, etc), Entities (Player starts, weapons, ammo, etc; basically Things in Doom), and Brush-based Entities (Movable objects that need brushes to define their shape, non-solid volumes such as fog and liquids, and Triggers (explained below)).

Creating a moving platform is as easy as drawing the platform with a Brush, then turning it into a Brush-based Entity of type Mover. You can then define things such as how much it bobs up and down on its own, and set it to move up and down, left to right, or on a complex path using marker entities similar to Mapspots. If you want something to specifically respond to a switch or the player's presense, you can create Triggers that activate by player touch (Quake 3 doesn't have any sort of use key -- you just bump into switches to press them). Triggers can then communicate with other Entities and tell them to open (doors), move (platforms), or even turn themselves invisible (toggleable walls and floors). Other types of entities allow the player to swim in them (liquid) and/or damage them while the player touches them (lava/radiation). I'm pretty sure anything you can do with ZDoom you can do with Quake 3 (and more, of course), with the exception of spawning enemies as they're simply are no enemies (other than bots, which are considered players by the map) in Quake 3. You could of course easily modify the game code to add monsters and create a game as robust as ZDoom.

I'm not trying to say I prefer Quake 3 over ZDoom, although my personal opinion is that if you're going to deathmatch, do it with something designed for it, not with crappy laggy netcode in a pseudo-3D engine. :P (No offense, Randy, I realize netplay is not one of your major priorities) I like ZDoom for the single-player levels, and I like Quake 3 for multiplayer. Believe it or not, the two have coexisted on my harddrive for years without ever getting in a fight. :P

If you want to see some good examples of maps "doing stuff", play Half-Life. It has alot of interactive stuff, which of course is useful in a single-player game. You have pipes that break as you're travelling through them, sending you plummeting into a pool of water far below; you have rockets launching, emergency doors closing, tripwires and stationary turrets and cameras and elevators and all kinds of things that "do stuff". :) In a multiplayer-only game like Quake 3, that kind of stuff would just get in the way, but that's not to say it can't be done.
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cccp_leha
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Post by cccp_leha »

I loved Half-Life. Shit, I loved so much I actually bought it! It's truly an excellent game, and the system specs are a joke these days. I really liked JK2 also; besides being a Star Wars OT fan, it amazed me - it was the first FPS I played since (Z)Doom :shock:. HotWax, is 3D (specifically JK2) editing really not that difficult? If so, you know of any good guides? Thanks.
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

The only thing that killed my love of Half-Life when I first got it (on my old 450MHz -- top of the line at the time :D) was the annoying habit of my 32max speed CD-ROM drive to spin down when it wasn't being used for redbook audio music (notice how nobody uses that anymore :P). When Half-Life needed to load a track (which it only did during particularly suspensful scenes or when entering a new area), the game froze while waiting for the CD to spin back up, and during this time any sound that happened to be playing repeated like a broken record.

The most infamous part of it was when you come across a scared guard who tries to warn you about something and then gets shot in the back. The moment he gets shot and falls, action music is supposed to start playing. I can't remember exactly what he said, but this is basically what it sounded like:

"Hey, man... WHATEVER you do, don't open the... GAHHHHHH ... GAHHHHHH ... GAHHHHHH ... GAHHHHH ... GAHHHHH ... GAHHHHH ... GAHHHHH" (Sorry, I'm not sure how else to spell a grunt of sudden surprise and death :P)

That really REALLY killed that scene for me. :(
cccp_leha wrote:HotWax, is 3D (specifically JK2) editing really not that difficult? If so, you know of any good guides? Thanks.
I'm not sure about guides, although Q3Radiant (the Q3 editor) comes with a fairly well-documented manual and tutorials. Here's a crash course though:

You open a new map. You're presented with a top-down view of a blank grid. On the left is a height-map (you can cycle through the X/Y/Z views of the main grid, or go to the preferences and choose to view them all at once, but I prefer only seeing one at a time). To create your first room, you left-click and drag a square in the main area. When you release, an untextured (red and black checked) cube (our first brush) appears, that is 128 units high (the defualt height). You can see this cube in the mini-3D preview window at the top-right, and texture it by loading in some texture from the appropriately-named Textures menu, and selecting them from the right side of the screen. The console area at the bottom of the window tells you exactly what you're doing as you do it. (side-dragging, textures applied, resulting sizes, etc) The box will still be selected, so to turn it from a solid cube into a hollowed-out room with 4 walls, a ceiling and a floor, we click the handy Hollow button on the toolbar. Instantly, the editor breaks the single Brush into 6 brushes -- one for each side. Before we can hop in and see what this looks like in-game, we need two things -- a player start (just like Doom), and a light-source (unlike Doom :)). Both of those are Entities. To add them, we'll simply deselect the 6 brushes by clicking empty space in the grid, then right-click an empty space and select Entity->Info->Deathmatch_Start from the pop-up menu. A new violet-colored box will appear that is the approximate size of a Quake 3 player. We can then drag this box into the room we created, and make sure he's in the right place height-wise using the height map. (His feet should be a little OFF the floor to start -- Quake 3 will automatically shift him down to the floor on spawn, but if he's touching the floor, he may be stuck in it) To create the light, we use the same method, only this time we select Entity->Light. We can then highlight it and press N (eNtity properties) to adjust things such as the light color and intensity. After placing it near the center of the ceiling, we compile the map from the menu and take it for a test spin. Congrats, you just created a square room. :P

Okay, so it's been awhile and the menus and other specifics might be a little different, but hopefully you get the gist of how simple it is. The main difference between this and Doom editting is that instead of creating playable space in "The void", you're creating SOLID areas that will then encompass what becomes the playable area. If you want to punch a hole in a wall, or slope it, or "cut" a brush in any other way, you design a brush to cut it with, apply it over the top of the brush to be cut, hit the Cut icon, and then delete. For example, if you wanted your ceiling to have a circular opening, you'd make a cylinder the size you wanted the hole to be, "punch" it through the ceiling brush, cut, and delete the cylinder. Viola, a circular hole. (The brush that makes up the ceiling will be cut into multiple brushes automatically -- this is because a brush cannot ever be concave, so that the BSP tree can do its magic)

Like I said, once you get the hang of it it's really not that hard.
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TOGoS
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Post by TOGoS »

The reason I keep using the ZDoom engine instead of one of those fancy 3D ones is because it's so much easier for me to build Doom-style levels with doom. I don't have to worry about brushes or leaks or lining things up vertically. I just outline a room, hit insert a couple times, and BAM! There's a room. Want steps? Insert a few more sectors and distribute floor heights. Yea, I realize it's not a lot more difficult to do in the 3D games, but it just doesn't feel the same. I think it's mostly due to the 'building' versus 'cutting' aspect (I've heard that Doom3'll use sectors..). Sometimes having to create a sector for every variation in floor and ceiling gets annoying, though. And I miss BUILD's bridges and overlapping sectors.
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HotWax
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Post by HotWax »

I doubt Doom 3 will go back to a sectors design type. That's just too radical a change and doesn't make sense in the long run.
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