[g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC)

[Rachael]

- the same build quality as other Apple notebooks

I've had one ....

Yeah, don't try to sell me on Apple brands by using Apple themselves as a reference! That's a quick way for that pitch to drop.

[Warrex]

I do not care if you call me an Apple fan because I (mostly) am.

You can also call me a fan boy but then back it up. When I wrote that Apple understate the performance of their products I did not mean that they do not hype them but that the relative performance metrics they provide are rather understated to avoid being sued for false advetisement. So sue them if you find anything to be wrong later on (https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/). I have read time and time again that they are rather conservative in this regard. Anandtech's review of the A15 e.g. states this "Compared to the competition, the A15 isn’t +50 faster as Apple claims, but rather +62% faster." (https://www.anandtech.com/show/16983/th ... fficient/2)

All current laptop CPU's, and I no reason to think Apple somehow magically completely changed the game here (current M1 sure didn't)

The M1 can run Cinebench R23 Multi looped (so under full CPU load) for at least 30 minutes without thermal throttling in a the MacBook Pro 13" just not the MacBook Air which is passively cooled: https://www.theverge.com/21570497/apple ... -m1-review

Yeah, don't try to sell me on Apple brands by using Apple themselves as a reference! That's a quick way for that pitch to drop.

As I said I never tried to sell you anything. I am just exited about the SoCs as they are by any means far beyond what the competion currently can provide - especially from an effiency standpoint. If you do not like them for dogmatic reasons or at least reasons you do not provide, then just do not buy Apple products.

[Rachael]

If you really want to know, I have a 2008 MacBook where the battery expanded and bloated right out of the case. It works fine without the battery, of course, but, now I have a big empty spot there, and no real way to replace it. The system is way too old, however, at this point, for me to really care anymore, but I won't forget that experience because that is the only Apple device that I've ever bought with my own money.

You also should look up this guy. Granted, you might think his perspective is skewed since he's in the repair business and sees all the devices in their worst states - but his complaints about Apple's anti-consumer and anti-right-to-repair efforts are still quite legitimate and relevant.

In my own personal perspective, however - while I am quite on board with Apple innovating with a new CPU architecture, and am happy with the effect that it will have on computing overall in the long run - I do not like the way Apple treats developers, or their end-users when there is a problem. If your device is broken, you're expected to foot the bill and completely replace it - they don't want you getting it repaired. And if ever a repair company proves that a device's data can be recovered, or even made somewhat functional after breaking when Apple's own repair techs say no it's not possible - they get extremely embarrassed about it and go to great lengths to try and smear the small mom&pop repair shops, to try and destroy their reputation. Not a good look for the company. Not a good look, at all!

So sorry if I am not a "fan girl" of your beloved Apple. They're doing what every corporation does - trying to extract money from every person they possibly can - at the cost of any sense of humanity or decency. You might think "oh that's perfectly fine a corporation is supposed to do that" - which is true, as far as the laws go, but it is still immoral and should not be the kind of thing which happens in a truly decent or just world. Sorry.

[Warrex]

Rachel, your concerns are probably all valid but I feel that they are political in nature and - as you said yourself - Apple is doing what every corporation does (well probably every IT megacorp.). If you can find a fair trade notebook with a repairabiity score of 10/10 go for it. So vote with your wallet or become a politcal activist.

For you I am probably then part of the problem as I find Apple to be less annoying than Microsoft, Samsung, Facebook and Google and just love the HW and interoperability. So let me happily sit in my golden cage. I really just wanted to let you know that Apple now went all out on the ARM front to pick up the technical disccussion we left back then.

[dpJudas]

So sue them if you find anything to be wrong later on

How am I supposed to find anything wrong on graphs that mention no actual products or competitors and has no actual units on the graphs? You simply assume they actually took the very best competitors products and then removed the names and units. That's how you reached the conclusion that they are now faster both on the CPU front (both single core and multicore) and at the same time beat Nvidia latest GPU.

Is it totally impossible they did just that? No, but it isn't very likely. You see, the devil is in the detail. What is exactly the best PC CPU? I'm willing to bet Apple is exclusively talking about laptop CPU's here, because there's just no way in hell you're convincing me that the M1 Super Duper Maxi Maximum beats a 32 core desktop PC CPU with just 10 cores. Even then, did they compare it to the latest AMD or Intel laptop CPU? So clearly we are already filtering exactly what CPU's are in those graphs. Likewise an "up to 4x" speed improvement on the GPU front sounds impressive, until you realize the M1 wasn't really that good at GPU tasks to begin with.

Let's see the actual numbers without these silly exagerations. Apple presentation graphs are as useless as whenever Intel announces that they beat AMD or when AMD announces they beat Intel. That you think Apple should be anymore trustworthy here only shows your Apple bias.

[Warrex]

How am I supposed to find anything wrong on graphs that mention no actual products or competitors and has no actual units on the graphs.

From the fine print. The graphs in the Anandtech article (https://www.anandtech.com/show/17019/ap ... erformance) have the notebooks Apple compares against in it and from them they took the info about the CPU/GPU. Just read it in full.

On Apple's website (https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/#footnote-9) the foot notes contain info about the Apple devices they compared against.

I have absolutley no idea why you seem to be so annoyed. When you are calling me biased it feels like we are on oppsite sites.

[dpJudas]

I am annoyed because you resurrected an old bug report thread just to tell us about Apple's newest laptops. And then I do knee-jerk to people praising corporations, I admit that. I really should just ignore it but hey I am who I am.

Edit: ok that graph then does identify the competitor product (mobile CPUs, as predicted), but what the hell is "Relative performance"? I don't know that benchmark suite. Where can I download it?

[Graf Zahl]

but what the hell is "Relative performance"? I don't know that benchmark suite. Where can I download it?

Yes, that's what I stumbled over as well. There's just some fancy graphs to impress the tech journalists (filtered for their pro-Apple bias, of course) who then write some articles full of praise of Apple's genius.

BTW, what do you think of this: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html
It's a bit suspicious how far away from the rest the M1 is in this ranking, I have seen some performance stats with GZDoom which simply cannot back up this monster ranking it gets here.

[Warrex]

I am annoyed because you resurrected an old bug report thread just to tell us about Apple's newest laptops. And then I do knee-jerk to people praising corporations, I admit that. I really should just ignore it but hey I am who I am.

I resurrected the tread to tell Rachel about how Apple scaled the archicture and not to sell notebooks. All the other things ("Apple's charts are marketing BS", "it will definitely throttle", "it is too expensive", "Apple is a bad company") did not come from me. So, sorry to have annoyed you by replying. I will just stop here. Maybe I am not the one here who is biased the most. Just saying...

[dpJudas]

But all those statements are true! Apple's charts are marketing BS (proof: no actual benchmark data), it will definitely throttle (proof: they compared it to mobile CPU's. If they had revolutionized CPU's to the level they could beat the desktop versions they'd have compared against those. Note that it was you that said throttle first, I just said they couldn't compete with desktop CPUs when YOU compared it to one), it is too expensive (that's subjective, I'm sure it was true for the person that wrote it, which wasn't me), Apple is a bad company (all large companies are shit, so technically not a lie ).

[Rachael]

Maybe I am not the one here who is biased the most. Just saying...

No one can escape their own perspective. It takes a lot to even try to understand someone else's, but consciously making the effort really goes quite a long way.

As you can see, replying to this thread did quite little to sway anyone's opinion. Not mine, not your's. And I am not here to engage in a pissing contest over "who is less biased". From my own perspective, you are completely unmoved by anything I say, and that makes you seem far more biased from my own point of view. My goal wasn't to get you to hate Apple, I only wanted you to try and think a little bit more critically about the things that they say and understand that marketing hype really is - just that. But I know I haven't been successful in that, and to that I really am not surprised, that really is a very difficult thing to teach to anyone.

That being said, this conversation has been surprisingly less hostile than most that I engage in with fairly contentious topics like this - so I do quite appreciate your decency on the matter and the fact that you didn't go off the rails and resort to personal attacks. That is quite commendable on your part, and it has not gone unnoticed. I think all that needs to be said about this topic has already been said though, and we can all go back to whatever we are doing - because no one here is going to convince anyone of anything. So I wish you well.

[Warrex]

I wish you well too, Rachel!

If it felt like I was unmoved by what you said, it is just because I am a lifeless Apple chat bot. Once benchmarks etc. are out you are all welcome to tell me you were right all along.

[Warrex]

Make of Anandtech's review what you will but it is hard to be disappointed by the M1 Max's performance:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/ap ... nce-review

It does not get more industry standard with regard to CPU benchmarks than the SPEC ones and in the floating point variant it is faster than even a Ryzen 5950X desktop CPU due to its insane memory bandwidth. This might also interest you: "The one workload standing out to me the most was 502.gcc_r, where the M1 Max nearly doubles the M1 score, and lands in +69% ahead of the 11980HK."

Also the M1 Max in the 16" MacBook does not throttle under full CPU load. It barely even ramps up its fan:
https://youtu.be/3MaccRf3tmI?t=383

Just do not buy a Macbook if you do not like Apple or the games you want to play have not been optimized for Apple Silicon and Metal (which currently probably means all the games besides 90s shooters via GZDoom/Raze).

Now you can lock the thread or think that I am annoying (again).

[Graf Zahl]

Please stop posting Apple ads here. I think it's best to just close this thread now.