ObAddon using pre-existing maps as a source

[LightWolf]

First of all sorry for my English, I am not fluent.

I have been following the evolution of ObAddon and it is getting more and more incredible. I have already tested countless combinations (including the range of combinations increased even more in the last update of the 21st), but I kept thinking about a possibility that I never saw discussed...

Is it possible to generate a map in ObAddon based on a pre-existing map?

For example, I choose Doom 1 E1M1, and create a procedural map following the pattern of this map. Or somehow a seed that follows the pattern of a particular vanilla map. Even if it is not possible to generate from scratch, some way of generating extra rooms and corridors on a prebuilt chosen map until the point of this becomes a unique procedural variation.

I would be very curious if I could see infinite variations of the procedurally generated E1M1 map, for example.

In addition, depending on the level of "enthusiasm" of whoever is going to generate the maps in these conditions, the possibilities become even more incalculable if the user generates using an already procedural map as a source

[Drake Raider]

I am seconding this question. There's alot of ideas I've had regarding existing map expansion.

[LightWolf]

I am seconding this question. There's alot of ideas I've had regarding existing map expansion.

Thank you!

I had this idea since I spent some time looking for different versions of the example I gave, the E1M1 map. Of course, among those searches I found entire episodes modified from Knee-Deep.

I tested each one, and even today I look for these variations. But they are getting rarer... With that I had the idea of using a map as a base in OBLIGE / ObAddon.

In addition to the example I gave, I believe that using a base map helps to generate procedural maps with more humanized styles, something that has long been desired.

[Caligari87]

ObAddon is mostly a content addon for Oblige, and neither supports using an existing map as a "source" for generation.

To be honest, such a task is far beyond the capabilities of existing map generation techniques. There is nothing for a computer to analyze in the data structure that "looks like" E1M1, except as the player's fuzzy logic interprets abstract shapes. Neural networks may have some success in this area someday, but at the moment no one is actively working on applying that to Doom map generation. It's certainly far far far beyond the capabilities of something like Oblige to do automatically.

One thing you could do is manually create an addon with geometry prefabs, shape rules, and a texture theme for Oblige based on visually distinct portions of E1M1, and dummy out the built-in prefabs/shape rules you don't want. This is a fairly advanced undertaking and probably won't turn out how you expect, but might be interesting. Obviously you would have to do this by hand for any "source" map you want to imitate.

[LightWolf]

ObAddon is mostly a content addon for Oblige, and neither supports using an existing map as a "source" for generation.

To be honest, such a task is far beyond the capabilities of existing map generation techniques. There is nothing for a computer to analyze in the data structure that "looks like" E1M1, except as the player's fuzzy logic interprets abstract shapes. Neural networks may have some success in this area someday, but at the moment no one is actively working on applying that to Doom map generation. It's certainly far far far beyond the capabilities of something like Oblige to do automatically.

One thing you could do is manually create an addon with geometry prefabs, shape rules, and a texture theme for Oblige based on visually distinct portions of E1M1, and dummy out the built-in prefabs/shape rules you don't want. This is a fairly advanced undertaking and probably won't turn out how you expect, but might be interesting. Obviously you would have to do this by hand for any "source" map you want to imitate.

Got it!

Thanks for the answer, Caligari. For me, it is a privilege to be speaking directly with the creator of this amazing ObAddon. By the way, thank you for the excellent work made available to us.

I fully understood the technical implications for materializing a way of making maps as I suggested. Remembering that I had this idea from an Oblige resource in Load Settings, where it allows selecting a Wad previously created by the Oblige himself. I believe that this function only obtains from the generated file some generation features and maybe even the seed of the map. I imagined that this resource could extract more than that somehow.

Now to finish with my question, following this concept of "model map", is there at least some preset of configurations for each internal Doom map?

For example, in order for Oblige / ObAddon to generate a map similar to E1M1, what features such as level size, outdoors, caves, hallways, etc. should I select? As in the next E1M2, 3, 4, etc ... Is there any guide or set of presets for these levels?

[Caligari87]

Loading a previously-generated Oblige wad does not do any kind of magic analysis or feature extraction. A wad generated with Oblige simply has an OBLIGDAT lump which contains the settings and random seed previously used to generate the wad, and the program reads those settings back in. There is no functionality which would allow this to actually analyze a map.

Obviously, human-made maps (including the Doom IWADS) do not have any OBLIGDAT lump for Oblige to read.

There is not any internal data regarding existing Doom maps, nor are there any presets that will reliably recreate them. The closest existing feature is the "Theme" setting, which limits the texture set and some prefab sets (such as "tech" or "hell"). Prefabs are simply small bits of geometry such as a pillar, or a doorway, or a staircase, with a bit of Lua code specifying how common they should be and what theme they belong to. They are hand-made by Oblige contributors, not automatically generated.

In short: There is no such thing as a "model map".

[Armaetus]

Absolutely not, at least for my opinion.

Better off making new prefabs for rooms/walls and additional room shapes instead.

[Hexereticdoom]

You know, I would absolutely love an ObAddon version fully compatible with Heretic... Could it be possible to see that dream come true someday?

[Drake Raider]

I've been dreaming of a fully procedurally generated HeXen. There were some small inklings in earlier Oblige, but they dropped support. It seemed to work, but didn't have the newer features.

I'm imagining that with Wrath of Chaos and maybe a hunger/fatigue system.

[kinker31]

I've been dreaming of a fully procedurally generated HeXen.

I second this idea, I've actually been playing quite a bit of Hexen sometime recently (With Guncaster, I'll admit), and it'd be really nice to be able to embark on generated campaigns, especially if a procedurally-generated ACS-Quest-Puzzle-Script-Thing could also be a thing. Doesn't even have to be fancy 'n all, could just be as simple as "get the 7 things to open Korax's door so you can kick his rear".

[Redneckerz]

I've been dreaming of a fully procedurally generated HeXen.

I second this idea, I've actually been playing quite a bit of Hexen sometime recently (With Guncaster, I'll admit), and it'd be really nice to be able to embark on generated campaigns, especially if a procedurally-generated ACS-Quest-Puzzle-Script-Thing could also be a thing. Doesn't even have to be fancy 'n all, could just be as simple as "get the 7 things to open Korax's door so you can kick his rear".

LilWhiteMouse's HQuest (for Heretic) and HQuest 2 tried to do something like this.

Nash also had an ACS based dungeon generator.