Tranquility (On Hold, 2017-08-12)

[JimmyJ]

Gotten quite used to the controls by this point, it'd be a shame to see them get a big rework now, they feel excellent to me. I could definitely take on E1 with this, and the trigger pull for aimed shots feels just about right to me. Seriously excited to see the arsenal expand further.

[Caligari87]

Not planning on changing the controls actually, sorry if I accidentally implied that somewhere. Shotguns and rifles should function more or less the same for the user when I add them, it's just I want to get everything code-wise sorted and generalized so new weapons are easier to implement. As-is I think I could make a shotgun work almost out-of-the-box as soon as the graphics are in place.

[mumblemumble]

This mod is great, and extremely cathartic : tedious reloading clips, but in a strangely addictive way. I love it especially as it feels like what receiver is, but I could never get the damn game to run. Pistol is hands down the most satisfying to use in game I've tried in a while, next to hd, and I would love to see this expanded.

A few features I'm curious about that you might already have, but I want to ask : things like bullets inheriting velocity of the shooter, or HD's angle based damage? I feel like these might already be in, but they would compliment the gameplay well, In my opinion. Might be redundant asking, but I feel they would fit extremely well, rewarding the very difficult task of good aiming... Are they included?

few issues that are a little annoying, bullets which are dropped after ejecting them cannot be picked up : its a nitpick, as ammo isn't very rare after an ammo box of a few zombie-man kills, but early on when you cant fill your clips up (maybe due to me being a terrible shot) its rather aggravating. Another is I think some math for the shots being off while moving and the sights being visible MIGHT be slightly off. I had the sights seemingly at 15 degrees off when firing, and then fired at a 30 degree angle a couple times : but it might of been just me. Ontop of that, while moving a lot, its literally impossible to tell where the gun is pointing which is kinda irritating : I wonder if you could use a series of sprites to model a sort of "voxel" setup of a gun model using a more elaborate version of what you already have for the sights? Would be a bit of a pain to do, but would be amazing as well. Even a crummy looking rendering would be interesting, and would fix the issue of firing when moving being completely blind. Ontop of that, the current gun display, while informative, could be shrunk / put to the side in favor of the old gun display, just for more information available to the player : so there's both the gun display to show stuff, and the gun in hand to show the aim. Come to think of it this would be much easier than the voxel idea, and would somewhat fix the "blind aim" issue.

and some sort of help screen would be helpful for this : theres a lot of learning off the cuff. At least a manual like HD has would be a good idea. Like sprinting, how is this done? shift seems to slow me down, and my normal walk speed is kinda brisk, but not much...and does the pistol occasionally stovepipe? Seems like I get a failure to eject now and then, but I'm unsure if this is a glitch, or intentional : either way, its neat.


Besides these, AMAZING mod, and I'm a bit torn because I love HD, but want to continue such gameplay. Cannot wait to see you make other functional guns, and to see me blunder about like a moron struggling to reload with a shotgunner in my face.

EDIT : oh, and there really need to be a cap on the jitteryness of aiming when heavily injured, when under 10 hp, its like trying to fire a gun during an epileptic seizure. Even trying to use the steady aim button only marginally mitigates this, to the point hitting something at point blank is iffy, let alone any ranged shot. Kinda reminds me of the original deux ex where they suggest if you get both legs crippled, that the agent should simply commit suicide because you cannot possibly complete the mission if you cannot walk and can only crawl haha.

And might I suggest a "range" map similar to the one in HD? Would be useful for getting used to shooting...

[Caligari87]

Thanks for the feedback! Wew, lots of stuff to cover here.

things like bullets inheriting velocity of the shooter, or HD's angle based damage?

Neither are included at the moment. Personally, velocity inheritance IMO is not at all needed unless the player is going to be shooting from a high-speed train or airplane. You'd simply NEVER notice (at least, I know I wouldn't). I WOULD like to include the angle-based damage or some other form of critical hit modelling besides random, but I'm not sure how it's done so I'd need to dig into HD's code a little. It's on the wishlist.

bullets which are dropped after ejecting them cannot be picked up

Aware of this, and I've been trying to figure out how to fix it. Changing the ejected rounds to inherit from Ammo doesn't work, so I think live rounds should spawn a pickup after they settle. If there's another way to make that work so the actual ejected round is pickup-able, that would be preferred. I know it's possible, I just can't figure out how.

Another is I think some math for the shots being off while moving and the sights being visible MIGHT be slightly off. I had the sights seemingly at 15 degrees off when firing, and then fired at a 30 degree angle a couple times : but it might of been just me.

I think it's just you. The math is pretty simple. To clarify though: Note that while the visual offset of the sights is accurately representative (eg, if they're offset left you're aiming left), they're not mathematically rigorous at the moment. In other words, if the sights aren't centered it's only really meant to show that you're offset, not be accurately used as a real-world prediction of where the shots might fly. I'll eventually change that to account for barrel length with some more complex trig, but it's unlikely to change the nature of the visible feedback to the player in any meaningful way.

Ontop of that, while moving a lot, its literally impossible to tell where the gun is pointing which is kinda irritating : I wonder if you could use a series of sprites to model a sort of "voxel" setup of a gun model using a more elaborate version of what you already have for the sights? Would be a bit of a pain to do, but would be amazing as well. Even a crummy looking rendering would be interesting, and would fix the issue of firing when moving being completely blind. Ontop of that, the current gun display, while informative, could be shrunk / put to the side in favor of the old gun display, just for more information available to the player : so there's both the gun display to show stuff, and the gun in hand to show the aim. Come to think of it this would be much easier than the voxel idea, and would somewhat fix the "blind aim" issue.

Honestly I already thought of doing this, and while it's technically POSSIBLE, I really really really am loathe to do it. A traditional weapon sprite is just one extra thing that'll need to be manually synced to complex dynamic behaviors and won't be able to show enough detail to make it worthwhile. In fact, the way the weapons are coded I'd venture to say it verges on entirely impractical. For the "voxel-like" one, I wanted to at first, but there's too many overlays as-is and it looks like utter shit at anything beyond the angles sights already fade out at.

Besides, to also build on the previous answer: To me, blind aim isn't an issue. You're not supposed to hit anything while moving quickly or the like. That's why I have the sights fade out rather quickly, because once the frontsight is "outside" the rear sight you're not going to be able to predict where any shots land.

and some sort of help screen would be helpful for this : theres a lot of learning off the cuff. At least a manual like HD has would be a good idea. Like sprinting, how is this done? shift seems to slow me down, and my normal walk speed is kinda brisk, but not much...and does the pistol occasionally stovepipe? Seems like I get a failure to eject now and then, but I'm unsure if this is a glitch, or intentional : either way, its neat.

There's actually an on-screen help HUD written by Gutawer, but I broke it and haven't been able to fix it yet. That'll return shortly. I will write a manual or help screen with the basic controls though.

If [Shift] slows you down, then you have auto-run enabled, which basically acts like always-on sprint. Default movement is intended to be pretty slow, and slows down the longer you sprint. Stovepipes/feed failures are NOT modeled and should be considered bugs, but I haven't ever encountered one so I'm not sure what the problem might be.

For they record, duds or failure to eject is stupidly easy to add (actual stovepipeing less so, but reasonably doable with minimal effort), but I've refrained from doing it because I feel its unfair and unnecessary and would only be a source of aggravation.

oh, and there really need to be a cap on the jitteryness of aiming when heavily injured, when under 10 hp, its like trying to fire a gun during an epileptic seizure. Even trying to use the steady aim button only marginally mitigates this, to the point hitting something at point blank is iffy, let alone any ranged shot.

Yes, this is something where I didn't test that edge case quite thoroughly enough. Latest github code has jittering capped to a more reasonable level. That said, don't get down to 10HP, lol

And might I suggest a "range" map similar to the one in HD? Would be useful for getting used to shooting...

Definitely! I actually had a stroke of inspiration last night about making a dynamic/randomized "killhouse" (and/or a monsters-to-silhouette-targets mod for *any* level) for exactly the purpose of training HD and Tranquility players. I wanna start work on that today, so hopefully I'll have something soon.

Thanks for all the feedback! I really appreciate it.

[mumblemumble]

The movement momentum being inherited does more than you would think : its made exponentially less important the higher the velocity(of the round), but its certainly something. Though if combined with the crazy movement of the sights / blind firing anyway, I suppose this would be overboard. I would certainly add in the angular crits as soon as possible, in my opinion : If I recall correctly its not a terrible amount of code. And it CERTAINLY made the meta game much deeper. Infact, its one of THE best parts about HD's metagame : that 2 pistol rounds can stop an imp if dead on, while 5 can leave it alive when grazing. Not trying to be a dick, but I would prioritize adding this and trying it out.

On further play, its actually not that bad aiming. Ive gotten somewhat used to it. Its actually WICKED SICK to whip the pistol slightly to the left or right, not having the sights lined up at all, and cap a zombie because you can predict where the aim will be : this is so amazingly satisfying, I couldn't keep from smiling. But its due to this I disagree with you about not having any indication for aim outside a certain amount : I can currently hit things at JUST before my sights go out ok , but figure I could do more if I had SOME form of feedback besides my gut instinct (which sometimes works too). Another part of it is, the arms feel less reactive than I figure they would for a light pistol. Keep in mind, in HD, the pistol is THE lightest, and most agile gun, and I figure having the sights always functional to at least a minimal extent would be reasonable, while shotguns, rifles, chainguns, or other things might be different due to the bulky frame, extra weight, and more real-estate of the arms taken up. I suppose it would help if the pistol didn't lag behind so easy, it makes sense for something like a rifle or shotgun, but its a bit excessive for a pistol.

Well, I've certainly got a couple cases where theres the EFFECT of a failure to feed or failure to eject, but to be honest I cannot recreate it reliably, nor is it frequent enough to bother me. So fuck it, lets call it a feature

range would certainly be nice : I suppose borrowing the range from HD would work for now with a couple edits, ask vae, but I feel confident he would allow it for a love letter to his mod.

I also had a thought : could we have multiple round types, in the distant future? I really like the idea of having say, hollow points, and FMJ rounds that I can load separately in whatever order I please.

This mod is absolutely OOZING with potential here. I hope you keep working on it.

Edit : what is tranqsouls in console?

[Caligari87]

For sure, I'll prioritize the angle-crit feature. As-is I spend far too much time meta-gaming inactive monster hitboxes around corners, which is starting to bug me since it overtakes the desired realism aspect.

The settling of the sights isn't supposed to represent the weight or the agility of the weapon (although that will factor in later for other things). The default state is meant to emulate a loosely-held "at rest" weapon the player isn't actively aiming (this state will eventually include stuff like breathing and heartbeat, making the sights really float-y and impractical for everything but point-blank range). That's what the "zoom" function is for, to abstract the combined mental and physical "effort" it takes to keep the weapon on-target instead of just in the enemy's general direction. Would it help if I dialed back the delay on the slow trigger to make it a little more viable for double-tab combat rather than sniping? Alternatively, perhaps I could come up with some kind of control scheme to help the player better control trigger pull in general, so "aiming" and "trigger speed" are two separate concepts. Maybe while aiming, pressing fire shoots immediately but with a risk of jerking the trigger off-target slightly, and a second level of Aim+Altfire is the what enables the slow trigger with better control?

Multiple round types is definite a possibility! If I can find a relatively simple way to model different damage types/amounts, then switching round types could be as easy as using the Zoom key to change types in the reloader. under the hood the main thing would be tracking rounds in a structured array on the mag instead of as a simple integer, which will require a little work but not too much. Be aware they will probably NOT show as such in the magazine unless I find some way to dynamically generate combined sprites on the fly instead of pre-making everything in TEXTURES. Currently each "state" of the round stack in the mag is a separate static frame, and it SUCKS to make, almost to the point where I'd rather only show the top round instead of the full thing for any future guns.

[mumblemumble]

I see. Yes, the slow trigger pull is a bit of a pain, I would honestly run around with aim on all the time if not for 1: I shoot MUCH slower, and less reactive, and 2, i have to hold it down (a toggle option would be extremely useful, possibly forcibly toggled off by jumping, very quick turns, or other things.). Also, if its indeed a LOOSE grip, then PLEASE raise up the movement speed when not aimed : I move like a turtle even when ""sprinting"" and this would be a very fair compromise between precision and agility, which would add to the games meta, swapping between slow and precise, and quick but sloppy. The movement speed is a big crippling factor, even when at full hp, and it doesn't help dodging things isn't exactly easy. I suppose this doesn't matter much because all monsters are vanilla, but I would figure I could still move faster...and the dynamic of agility / precision balance sounds like a no brainer to make the game-play deeper. I also think there should at least be a cap on angle it can be, and STILL a bit more reactive : doing a 180 degree turn takes an entire second to get the gun on point even somewhat, and this seems just a little lazy in terms of aiming, even if its not deliberate full on "aiming". I feel it could be cut to 75%, possibly even half, and this would indeed help, because the biggest issue is when I move quickly, my hand takes forever to respond and I feel like I must then mash aim briefly to get my aim normal, THEN fire after releasing aim, which feels janky. This would also be solved by the precise and slow / fast and sloppy dynamic, where I could indeed be accurate, but would be capped on speed, or be speedy, but capped on control. EDIT : and no, I'm not even advocating for removing sprint, I was thinking there would be 4 speed levels, from slowest to fastest : Aimed walking, loose walking, Aimed running, and loose running : but still enough theres flexibility.

The idea of even having a variable trigger speed is neat, but if I'm honest, I think is asking too much for the already somewhat bogged down controls. But I suppose you could do something along the lines of alt fire to do slower shots? You could make that also a toggle, again turning off when any significant movement and this would help (or when double tapping hectically, so panic spraying wouldn't turn into fondling the trigger) : I notice no real difference in aiming between slow and quick, outside just having steadier aim from the tighter grip, so I wouldn't object to it being removed for now.

EDIT : fire state, aiming state, and other state are not indicated with player sprite....this also need to be added eventually, especially considering this would be awesome in a multiplayer pistol duel.

EDIT2 : For debug purposes, and possible awsomeness, a laser sight might be VERY useful as a cvar.

[Caligari87]

this would be a very fair compromise between precision and agility, which would add to the games meta, swapping between slow and precise, and quick but sloppy. [...] ...and the dynamic of agility / precision balance sounds like a no brainer to make the game-play deeper.

All very true. Keep in mind the movement system is still very much in its infancy and I simply haven't gotten there yet with the balancing and features I want Honestly I should probably split it to a separate branch until it's ready.

I hadn't thought to cap the weapon's angle/pitch offset honestly. That should be a fairly easy clamp to help alleviate fast turns and make it feel less lazy while still being appropriately loose. I'll be honest though: I'm going to have roadblocks to discourage staying in "aim mode" all the time, because it's just not feasible. Speed-wise, if anything I'll up the base movement speed slightly and require the the player to move slower while aiming. To that end I'm considering doing what HD does, and having base movement be a slow walk, auto-run a medium combat jog/speedwalk, and hold-[Run] being a fast sprint. Anything above slow walk is going to drastically affect aiming (passive or active) for non-shouldered weapons. I know, I know, it sucks, but I promise this particular niggle only feels so crippling because there's no alternatives for medium-range combat. It'll seem less so once I actually have weapons designed for anything besides short-range mag-dumping.

The "benefit" of the slow trigger pull is indeed just the tightened grip/sights right now. The two modes are meant to exemplify that quick+sloppy vs. slow+precise ideal, but I admit it does hurt play-ability somewhat. I really want a use case where the slow trigger is a viable and moreover desired option for the player, but perhaps the rest of the meta doesn't really support it at the moment.

[mumblemumble]

See, I figure allowing mixes of walking / running, or aiming / loose to blend with each other could make for very, very organic gunplay : yes, aiming might seem OP on paper, BUT, you're not also accounting for the bob from each step, the arms jostling from movement, ect : it wouldn't make aiming while running a catch all solution it would more just act as giving you a general idea of aiming whilst moving : MANY other factors could throw it off, especially with all you sound like you have planned, and there would be plenty of room for a player to decide, weather to be crack-shot gunslinger running around like a madman and shooting accurate on pure skill alone, taking a slow and steady approach of crouching, aiming and firing , or maneuvering with the gun out stretched, aimed down sights, and walking with a "combat jog". Infact its funny you mention HD with that, because this currently is VERY doable in HD, albiet it has different meta (more recoil emphasis, less movement from looking, no real "aim" button). Currently in HD you CAN run around firing pretty damn accurate from the hip SO LONG as you know where it is, but in practice its a lot like holding a rifle out and firing while moving - sure the recoil is much worse than when braced, or even still, but you can handle it with some skill and tenacity. I figure maybe just try such a configuration, assuming having 4 different movement speeds isn't too much a pain in the rear... but this would enable the concept of firing while sprinting, even if its completely unreliable in MOST situations outside a pistol due to 2 armed guns locomotion wrecking havoc on aiming : so please consider the setup. If complex, the meta would be immensely deep.

As for the slow trigger pull, how about hold alt fire / press fire? Currently its to release the slide lock, but I figure it could serve both functions maybe... And as for the slower trigger pull being better, how about a VERY BRIEF (1-3 ticks) delay in firing fast, with a very small throw off when doing a quick trigger pull, emulating the gun being tilted / moved by the sudden hand movement? This would indeed provide a difference which would be worthwhile using the slower shot, but the faster trigger pull has strength in fire rate and react-ability still : its all about weighing pros and cons in making the meta in my opinion, and I think if you included all that, this mod would be a damn good spiritual successor to receiver.

Also, incase you didn't see my edit, a CVAR for a laser sight would be really useful as a debug / testing tool, as well as just being cool. I know it would be limited at 35 ticks per second, but still, it would provide a TON of information thats more concrete than guesses as to how the guns are functioning.

[Caligari87]

I should clarify, I'm not planning on forcing the player to move slower while aiming, in case I implied such. You're right that more organic gunplay is better than limiting the player's options, and I plan to encourage that by not disabling or blocking actions. I was meaning that the meta by itself should encourage the player to use realistic tactics (such as crouching for stability) simply because they work better. Sure, it'll be possible to "aim" and run John Wick-style, but at that juncture you'd definitely have to rely on intuition and timing rather than expecting your sights to stay centered.

(Sidebar, you can actually do this already by only firing when your bouncing sights cross. It feels really badass when you're good enough to pull it off and will be a little more feasible when I handle sight sway/jitter by velocity interpolation instead of raw random offsetting.)

I do plan on adding trigger jerk for rapid trigger pulls, so slow pulls will by default negate that when I add it in. I'll also do the laser sight Cvar suggestion, that definitely sounds helpful for debugging. On the subject of debugging, in the most current Github (not release) you can enable TQDebug_Stamina to see how movement, health, and falling affect your status. Be warned, lots of every-tic console spam if you have logfiles turned on.

[mumblemumble]

Neato. And no, you didn't really imply it would be limited persay, I just wanted to check : IMO lack of choice is objectively bad for a game unless it is to add to challenge, storyline, or to keep controls / code from being an absolute pile of spaghetti.

I am aware you can currently fire that way, and you are NOT kidding when you say it feels rad : insta killing a zombie man has not yet ceased to bring me amusement when its nowhere near aimed down the sights, especially if its farther than 15 yards. I guess if aiming is made a toggle, and is separate from a slow trigger pull, I would be completely happy with aiming, even if aiming ended up slowing things down slightly. That was my main point.

I will try messing around with the debug stuff just to get an idea of behind the scenes stuff : stamina certainly seems a bit rough, I tried playing the first map of trump doom, and trying to climb up into the apartment was hilarious : I felt like I was actually playing as a donald trump in his old, chubby self! struggling for breath after hopping on the mail box and barely able to climb through the window without several breaks to catch my breath.... In all seriousness I doubt hes quite in THAT bad of shape, maybe... but it certainly makes me think stamina is just slightly too unforgiving : but I suppose the low "run" speed is a major factor in this. Really, I suppose its not entirely unrealistic for your average American to struggle with that kind of athletics, but for game-play reasons, it might be better to assume the player is in excellent fitness, like HD. I will also say I enjoy that I have an actual jump, unlike HD's mantling / leaping feature, though I do admit-ably miss the ability to use "leaping" to dodge. Yeah, I know your movement is in its infancy, but I might as well give all the input i can...and I also assume maybe the stamina problem might be resolved when movement is made faster

[Caligari87]

Movement is definitely going to be expanded to include dashing/dodging (probably via double-tap of movement keys), and some form of mantling/vaulting as well. My thought is to use the jump key as a general environmental movement/interaction key that simply defaults to jumping if there's no better choice. Probably something along the lines of tap to simply jump, but holding would vault low objects without losing speed, leap over gaps (if there's a suitable landing spot in range), or grab/hang from ledges (which can then be mantled if stamina/encumbrance allows). Sort of a light "parkour" system without the ridiculousness of wall-jumping and whatnot. But that's all fairly long-term and subject to change if it doesn't serve gameplay well.

Basically, part of my goal for this project is a sort of "HD-lite" that doesn't feel as clunky to play (sorry Vaecrius!). Regarding the movement system, we humans are generally able to get around out environments pretty well and I want to reflect that as much as possible while keeping it "realistic."

On another note, you actually gave me a pipe-dream idea to have optional classes with different fitness levels like "average office worker" and "elite killing machine" ... Imagine fighting the demonic invasion as a pudgy armchair quarterback going to war with his cheap civilian-grade AR-15 and a box of Walmart ammo, or as John Wick with a match-grade Kimber 1911 where every headshot counts.

[mumblemumble]

Well, since you have an aptitude for multi use keys, how about maybe making jump "dodge" if tapped, but a "jump" if held down and charged, emulating having to compress ones legs for an actual jump? Would allow both with 1 key and would also fit in the realism aspect, in my opinion. Plus you could go the route of spider man 2 for the PS2, if you are familiar with it, where huge jumps actually had a charge up involved, perhaps with crouching acting as a "cancel" button.

I get what you mean : I adore HD, I really do, but it is admit-ably a little clunky here and there. Though if HD and tranq could have a baby well, that would be amazing.

On talk of another class, what about a revolver made of a futuristic design which can fit any caliber with intelligent morphing metal? That could be interesting, a 6 shooter which could fire anything from 9mil, 357's and shotgun shells, to 50 cal anti material rifle rounds and sabo rounds.

Also, upon thinking about it, the aim thrown off by low health would benefit from being less of a constant jitter and more a "throbbing" pulse : when injured, this is usually what happens, unless its fresh, and would still being a pain while not being completely debilitating at low health too.

[Caligari87]

Definitely considering the "charge to jump" for the realism aspect, but it may be too far from accepted game design for most players. We'll see. Maybe. Aim jitter is definitely going to be tweaked for things like heartrate and breathing instead of being just constant, too.

I think I'll leave the fanciful future-weapons and stuff to HD for now though Trying to keep mine a little more grounded.

[Matt]

but it may be too far from accepted game design for most players

This would be a drop in the bucket compared to a lot of what's already in Tranquility. :V

Go for it and see how it plays!