ZDoom

by **Belial** » Tue May 10, 2005 3:06 am

Nothing new said.

The Compet-N faq wrote:Q: Do you guys have a life?

A: Actually, no

Since I care about such stuff, it's important enough for me. Frankly, when I finally manage to record any 30nm, I'll quit Doom whatsoever.

by **Enjay** » Tue May 10, 2005 2:24 am

I'm with wildweasel on this one. Just how much kudos can you really get from being the über 1337 geek player of the year? I mean come on, sure playing video games is great fun and it's the basis of this community but we're hardly furthering mankind or making a grand contribution in any sense of the world. And it's really only important in a relatively small world. The rest of the universe considers it a bit sad (not that that's a reason to stop). Hey, even plenty other members of the community consider it a bit sad.

[sweeping_generalisation]To get that good at a game probably means you spend way too much time in front of a monitor, have bad skin and are socially dysfunctional. Not something I aspire to.

[/sweeping_generalisation]

8

by **Belial** » Mon May 09, 2005 6:08 pm

In the Doom community, I think it's worth enough to try to accomplish something like 30nm29??.

by **wildweasel** » Mon May 09, 2005 4:38 pm

Belial wrote:I don't put pro gamers on a pedestal. Except for Doom.

I don't even put pro Doom players on a pedestal. Personally, playing games should be meant solely for just having fun, not for bragging rights or prizes. No sir, I wouldn't play video games for money if I weren't having fun with them. Those corporate bigwigs could pay me a million dollars and it wouldn't be worth playing crap like Psychotoxic.

Besides that, how much is it really worth to be respected for playing an 11-year-old game really really well?

by **Belial** » Sun May 08, 2005 11:36 pm

My first post about jumping referred to a more broad approach to the Doom engine and that meant "I don't have anything against implementing jumping in ZDoom because it was used in Hexen".

Mouselook kills the Doom feeling instantly. Add 'for me' and you have what I wanted to say without it sounding like dictatorship.

I don't put pro gamers on a pedestal. Except for Doom. The Compet-N page showed me how playing Doom should look like. That and DHT showed me how to play NM and what it means to be skilled at playing Doom. I have a lot of respect for people like Henning Skogsto or Anders Johnsen. I gladly accepted their point of view on the matter because it wasn't that much different from my own in the first place.

by **Phoenix9000** » Sun May 08, 2005 9:12 pm

Belial wrote:What's so funny? I can go with jumping, but mouselook kills the Doom feeling instantly.

This is where I read jumping into your posts. It certainly implied you used jumping. If I was mistaken, that's fine, no harm done.

And one last thing: I'll be blunt - I know I'm right. Why? Because that's the opinion of the Doom-gods at Compet-N. And they chose PrBoom as their port of choice because of it's true Doom feel.

If it makes you feel better it's no down off my back, however I don't put "pro" gamers on a pedestal, nor do I defer my opinions to them. I make up my own mind about things. Now if PrBoom is a good old-schoolish Doom port maybe I'll give it a try sometime.

by **Belial** » Sun May 08, 2005 8:41 pm

General reply to all stuff about this being a ZDoom forum:

The point where you came into the discussion, we weren't talking about ZDoom. It was about PrBoom vs. having a vanilla compatible comp.

Quake thing: I don't care about Quake.

Jumping thing: Read Hobbs'es post. I clearly said "I've never used mouselook in ZDoom (and never will), and never use jumping if the wad does not allow it. "

When I want to say fuck, I will do it. Doesn't have shit to do with my respect for Randy.

Never played Counterstrike (that what you meant by CS?)

Availability of the option: Most of the menus in ZDoom can be considered cheat menus to some extent. Ever heard of those? The crosshair is a cheat, the compat. option for not infinitely tall actors is a cheat. Everything that makes playing ORIGINAL DOOM WADS easier is a cheat in my book. Don't care what you do with ZDoom-specific wads. And one last thing: I'll be blunt - I know I'm right

. Why? Because that's the opinion of the Doom-gods at Compet-N. And they chose PrBoom as their port of choice because of it's true Doom feel.

Then again, perhaps I am expecting too much by seeking some degree of consistency within your argument. I apoligize, I won't make the mistake of expecting meaningful discussion here from this point onward.

You're the one who can't find consistency in my post. Hobbs said the same thing and he's perfectly ok. Perhaps I am expecting too much by seeking some degree of consistency within your argument.

by **Phoenix9000** » Sun May 08, 2005 8:10 pm

Belial wrote:Ok, lets play the post dissecting game.

If you insist.

Yes, in a classic Doom sense.

I thought we were talking about ZDoom here, not Doom.exe.

I suppose you're of the mind that running a Quakeworld client that includes positional and model frame interpolation is "cheating" too because the normal choppiness makes me nauseous and dizzy as well?
I have no idea what you just said

How about I clarify it then. Quake has no interpolation code. Interpolation, for the uneducated, is the part of the rendering code that fills in the gaps between model frames and makes movement smooth and not jerky. Play Quake 1, then play Quake 2, and watch the way the player models behave and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

No, you're wrong. Manual aiming is much less limited than Doom's autoaim. The jumping example is total crap, because a) Doom wasn't designed for mouselook either, b) mlook lets you kill map30 noprob.

You brought up map30, not me. Frankly I couldn't care less about map30 in this discussion. I was merely pointing out that your attitude of "my way is ok, your way isn't" is just your way of hypocritically talking down to someone you disagree with. I can see that went straight over your head.

Not my rules, classic Doom rules. Not my method, Doom's method.

Hmm... *checks the forum name* Yep, this is ZDoom, not Doom.exe, not Doom2.exe, so I guess those "Doom rules" are still irrelevant to this discussion.

What makes you right and me wrong, hmm? I only see this as a difference in preference.
Correct.

Then what's your problem here?

I'm not telling you anything, it's just the way I see it.

You play your way, I'll play mine. I've got no problem with that.

I don't give a...

You gave enough of one to reply, didn't you? Nice circumventing of forum filters and rules. I see you have the utmost respect for the developers and moderators here.

Show me a +mlook option in Doom. I'd really like to see that.

Funny, I don't remember there being a jump option either. *double-checks the forum name again*. Yup, still has a z in front of "doom". Thought so.

If using an option is cheating by your definition, then I hereby demand you use only default settings from this point onward. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it?
Actually, it does.

Good for you!

Am I supposed to go WOW or sth? The fact that I had an Atari at the time and didn't play Doom in Dec '93 doesn't change anything. The Wolf example is masochistic. The Doom pistol thingy is laughable. I did it on Tyson, Pacifist (w/o ep4 and e2m8), and NM. So what! It doesn't change the fact that mlooking in SP Doom is a cheat. Reason: it makes the game easier. Do I care if you're using cheats? No. As I said it's your problem.

Well you seemed to have the attitude that your way was the only old-school way, so I felt I'd give you a little background on my gaming experiences to provide some point of reference. I can see that you can't pass up even the smallest opportunity to act like a typical CS player, so forgive me for giving you even the smallest benefit of the doubt. As for Mlook, in Zdoom it is an option available from the main menu, same as jumping. You consider using an option that's directly available from the menu a cheat, I do not. Mlook is off-limits as far as your concerned, yet jumping is not. What I don't grasp here is why one would be any more of a cheat than the other by your definition. Then again, perhaps I am expecting too much by seeking some degree of consistency within your argument. I apoligize, I won't make the mistake of expecting meaningful discussion here from this point onward.

Hobbs: You're welcome for the DOSBox info.

by **Belial** » Sun May 08, 2005 5:19 pm

I should now edit my post to include the bunny pic

by **HobbsTiger1** » Sun May 08, 2005 5:10 pm

I have my own quote dissection, with most of those quotes.

*Begin post dissection*

So somehow because I prefer to aim manually my gameplay experience is less "true" than yours?

It is less true to Doom, from an academic standpoint.

I suppose you're of the mind that running a Quakeworld client that includes positional and model frame interpolation is "cheating" too because the normal choppiness makes me nauseous and dizzy as well?

I find this ironic since by manually aiming I'm only doing on my own what the game would do automatically for me, whereas jumping - which the game was never designed for - allows you to reach places you never could before or shortcut other areas.

First, I'm the one that jumps, not Belial. Second, name a wad where you can shortcut.

I don't particularly like it when someone else tries to dictate to me how I should play a single-player game on my own system.

AFAICS hes not dictating.

If using an option is cheating by your definition, then I hereby demand you use only default settings from this point onward. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it?

Doesn't sound so bad.

Options are there for a reason, and besides the fact that Doom.exe won't work with Win2k it's precisely because of those options I play Zdoom. As far as I'm concerned the only problem cheating out there consists of wallhacks, aimbots, and speedhacks during multiplayer, and such things I have zero tolerance for. If someone wants to iddqd and idkfa and go bunny-hopping all the way through Doom why should I care? It's not detracting from my gameplay experience what they do on their own single player game.

And your point is?

What you never bothered to ask me is if I am willing to play without crosshair or manual aiming, which I am, and which I did for years. I played shareware Doom when it was distributed via BBS and floppy disks. I played Wolfenstein 3D when it was cutting edge. I've played all the way through Doom 1 using only a pistol, and I've beaten Wolf using only a knife. I'm as oldschool as you can get, so you might want to give me a little credit here instead of bashing me just because I like to aim on my own.

NO ONE CARES

*End post dissection*

by **Belial** » Sun May 08, 2005 4:53 pm

Ok, lets play the post dissecting game.

So somehow because I prefer to aim manually my gameplay experience is less "true" than yours?

Yes, in a classic Doom sense.

I suppose you're of the mind that running a Quakeworld client that includes positional and model frame interpolation is "cheating" too because the normal choppiness makes me nauseous and dizzy as well?

I have no idea what you just said

I find this ironic since by manually aiming I'm only doing on my own what the game would do automatically for me, whereas jumping - which the game was never designed for - allows you to reach places you never could before or shortcut other areas.

No, you're wrong. Manual aiming is much less limited than Doom's autoaim. The jumping example is total crap, because a) Doom wasn't designed for mouselook either, b) mlook lets you kill map30 noprob.

So basically it's not cheating only if I play by your rules. It's pretty selfish to use your view of how a game should be played as the metric for everyone else's experience, and pretty arrogant to assume your method of play is the only right one.

Not my rules, classic Doom rules. Not my method, Doom's method.

What makes you right and me wrong, hmm? I only see this as a difference in preference.

Correct.

I don't particularly like it when someone else tries to dictate to me how I should play a single-player game on my own system.

I'm not telling you anything, it's just the way I see it.

Some people play Quake 3 Arena with picmip 5, some like to turn on all the visual features they can.

I don't give a fuck.

If an option is part of the game it's up to the player what they want to do with it.

Show me a +mlook option in Doom. I'd really like to see that.

If using an option is cheating by your definition, then I hereby demand you use only default settings from this point onward. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it?

Actually, it does.

Options are there for a reason, and besides the fact that Doom.exe won't work with Win2k it's precisely because of those options I play Zdoom. As far as I'm concerned the only problem cheating out there consists of wallhacks, aimbots, and speedhacks during multiplayer, and such things I have zero tolerance for. If someone wants to iddqd and idkfa and go bunny-hopping all the way through Doom why should I care? It's not detracting from my gameplay experience what they do on their own single player game.

Yeah, it's their problem.

What you never bothered to ask me is if I am willing to play without crosshair or manual aiming, which I am, and which I did for years. I played shareware Doom when it was distributed via BBS and floppy disks. I played Wolfenstein 3D when it was cutting edge. I've played all the way through Doom 1 using only a pistol, and I've beaten Wolf using only a knife.

Am I supposed to go WOW or sth? The fact that I had an Atari at the time and didn't play Doom in Dec '93 doesn't change anything. The Wolf example is masochistic. The Doom pistol thingy is laughable. I did it on Tyson, Pacifist (w/o ep4 and e2m8), and NM. So what! It doesn't change the fact that mlooking in SP Doom is a cheat. Reason: it makes the game easier. Do I care if you're using cheats? No. As I said it's your problem.

by **HobbsTiger1** » Sun May 08, 2005 4:33 pm

Mousing isn't my thing either. It does rather detract from gameplay. Plus, my primary machine is a Sony VAIO notebook, and its mouse is NOT designed for gameplay. My justification for jumping is that strafejumps help me in DM and I play a lot of Hexen (this introduced jumping so don't tell me you shouldn't use it). On singleplayer PWAD's if its not meant for jumping and not a ZDoom wad I try not to use it. If it is a ZDoom designed PWAD I don't care what its designed for, I'll use jumping.

by **Phoenix9000** » Sun May 08, 2005 2:23 pm

Hobbs: Yes, DOSbox has full sound emulation. I've run Wolfenstein 3d and Wing Commander with it, although Wing Commander would occasionally crash DOSBox back to Windows.

Belial: So somehow because I prefer to aim manually my gameplay experience is less "true" than yours? I suppose you're of the mind that running a Quakeworld client that includes positional and model frame interpolation is "cheating" too because the normal choppiness makes me nauseous and dizzy as well? I find this ironic since by manually aiming I'm only doing on my own what the game would do automatically for me, whereas jumping - which the game was never designed for - allows you to reach places you never could before or shortcut other areas. So basically it's not cheating only if I play by your rules. It's pretty selfish to use your view of how a game should be played as the metric for everyone else's experience, and pretty arrogant to assume your method of play is the only right one. What makes you right and me wrong, hmm? I only see this as a difference in preference. I don't particularly like it when someone else tries to dictate to me how I should play a single-player game on my own system. Some people play Quake 3 Arena with picmip 5, some like to turn on all the visual features they can. So what? If an option is part of the game it's up to the player what they want to do with it. If using an option is cheating by your definition, then I hereby demand you use only default settings from this point onward. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it? Options are there for a reason, and besides the fact that Doom.exe won't work with Win2k it's precisely because of those options I play Zdoom. As far as I'm concerned the only problem cheating out there consists of wallhacks, aimbots, and speedhacks during multiplayer, and such things I have zero tolerance for. If someone wants to iddqd and idkfa and go bunny-hopping all the way through Doom why should I care? It's not detracting from my gameplay experience what they do on their own single player game.

What you never bothered to ask me is if I am willing to play without crosshair or manual aiming, which I am, and which I did for years. I played shareware Doom when it was distributed via BBS and floppy disks. I played Wolfenstein 3D when it was cutting edge. I've played all the way through Doom 1 using only a pistol, and I've beaten Wolf using only a knife. I'm as oldschool as you can get, so you might want to give me a little credit here instead of bashing me just because I like to aim on my own. Besides that, I thought this thread was supposed to be about monster behavior and why it's different in Zdoom, which Graf already answered for me.

by **Belial** » Sun May 08, 2005 9:36 am

I've never used mouselook in ZDoom (and never will), and never use jumping if the wad does not allow it. I want to play Doom because of what it is, including the limitations. If I want mouselook, I play Quake, but if you play Doom with mouselook, you basically cheat. Map30 of Doom 2 loses all it's meaning and so does the rest of the game.

Only port in which I use mouselook is jDoom, when I'm running it with with the model pack and full 3d.

by **HobbsTiger1** » Sun May 08, 2005 9:28 am

You say your not playing Doom (and it doesn't feel like it), but theres the IWAD and look at the name of the port ZDoom. Just strikes me as funny when people say that even though I agree with them entirely (which makes it more funny). And jumping is a Hexen thing, so if you play Hexen you can't go without it (and I've crashed or glitched a couple wads in Doom because I jump there too).

ZDoom

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