[release] The Phobos Directive, direct to you

[Machalite]

You're almost right on the money about about Doom players being used to music, but that's not the whole story. Music has, and will always be, a staple of the Doom experience, because it's what provides the ambiance, because Doom is not sophisticated enough to create a soundscape equivocal to that of games made in the last decade. Those sound effects you included are sparse, repetitive, and an underdeveloped attempt to substitute them for music. For comparison's sake, think about Doom 3's sound design: it's not the occasional fan whirring or computer beeping, it's a whole blanket of white noise that gives everything a sense of space. That's why music is integral to what players expect from Doom mods.

And, admittedly, when there isn't any music playing, there isn't a whole heck of a lot to keep me engaged in the experience; the lack of music became more noticeable is what I'm saying. Not that a wad has to be something remarkable or game-changing to be entertaining to me, but this just doesn't have that killer app that makes me want to play it again, even if I have to play half of it in complete silence. For example, Legacy of Suffering and Phocas Island 2 both use music in a similar fashion, but those wads had a whole lot more going for them, and went to much greater lengths to create a realistic soundscape.

[ReX]

Guess what's going on here.... That's right. I'm stuck INSIDE the door. No bit of moving or spacebar slamming can get me out of this..... High-quality playtesting here, folks.

Does this happen to you every time you go through the door? Were you doing anything out of the ordinary when this happened? What version of GZDooM were you using? What other add-ons were you using? It might be a problem with the map, but I'm inclined to think that might not be the case. Still, you may be able to help us figure out what's causing the problem.

Not one of the play-testers has reported this as a problem, and no-one else on the forum has reported it either, which leads me to think that this may have been an aberration rather than it being the norm. I just went back there and tried to get stuck in the door, but I couldn't. Plus, I've been through that door dozens of times while testing, and it never once happened to me.

[Reinchard2]

I play it and at the moment I'm in "Hazardous Waste...". I have to say that the amount of work that you put into this project is amazing. This hub has everything what I like: It has a nice architecture (detailed but not too much like in KDiZD, this is all in good taste), It has a really good soundtrack, that sounds like if it was created by an someone professional and really nice atmosphere + not boring gameplay. Congratulation guys. One thing I don't like is some of the sky textures, but this is a detail.

[esselfortium]

The only people who are trying to dismiss Darkhaven's feedback ATM are Rex and TUD...

First off, I'm not sure I would characterize it as "feedback". More a vitriolic expression of his/her personal preference. No harm in expressing a preference. No harm in even stating that s/he believes things would be better if those preferences are implemented. However, statements like: "blatant refusal to align a single texture in the entire map," and "obvious the mod wasn't properly playtested" are not only not intended to be constructive, they are intended to be downright insulting. For those that choose to be deliberately insulting, I doubt their behavior will endear their targets to their points of view.

Second, you'll do me the favor of re-reading this thread and noting that I did nothing to "dismiss Darkhaven's feedback". As a matter of fact, I did not respond (even tangentially) to a single of his posts. Plus, if you read carefully, you'll see that I have not tried to "dismiss" anyone's criticism. I'd say it is immature to get into a pissing contest with someone on a matter of opinion. Should I call them "fucking assholes" for not agreeing with me, only to hear them call me a "raging faggot" because I don't agree with them? Nothing's achieved. I've been in enough fist-fights in my University days to know that a bloody nose hurts even if you gave the other guy a black eye in exchange.

I'll say this again: The Team created what we hope will be enjoyed by the majority of the DooM community. If we succeed in doing that our work is done. And contrary to comments such as "there is no excuse but laziness", I'd have to say that everyone on the Team did their best. If that wasn't good enough for some, so be it.

I guess this means you won't be trying to defend the wad against any of the points he made, then.

Some things never change I suppose.

[Infurnus]

I think this could be pretty good if the major problems were squashed.
A lot of stuff was already pointed out by others here so I'll try to keep this brief.

It's not so much that this is terrible or ugly or anything, but that things could easily be fixed with a little elbow grease. Try not to take criticism as hating or whatever, even if it is very harsh. When people get quite a bit flustered or even vehemently angry from some problems or glitches, that still doesn't change the fact that there are problems and glitches.
Hopefully you(the team) can see this and do your best to iron out these issues and move on with the project.

Edit: This could be useful information for almost any project actually

[Xaser]

First off, I'm not sure I would characterize it as "feedback". More a vitriolic expression of his/her personal preference.

Given the circumstances, I'm inclined to agree. It's really unfortunate that he had to express it that way, since it's really hard to take any suggestions therein to heart as a result. A similar thing happened after release of an older project of mine and I ended up having to just say "fuck it" to the entire wad. Hopefully this nonsense doesn't tarnish any legit feedback that turns up afterward.

Also, I seem to be remembering a post by you in feedback topic, but sure enough, looking back, there's not anything to be found... not entirely sure how I got that mixed up. Apologies there.

[neoworm]

So far I like this mapset a lot. Graphicaly its far from perfect, but gameplay wise - its like poor mans RTC-3057. I like the nonlinear level structure. Thats all.

[Steve1664]

Okay, spending a little time with it I can think of two things that come to my mind while playing:
1. Holy cats, why is this so punishing? I think you can do without the scores of rapid-firing shotgunners at the offset, and if you're gonna use chaingun-toting zombies, then use the actual chaingunners instead of regular zombies that make you think you're fighting regular zombies rather than chaingunners. Loads of imps, too; not normally a problem, but when you're barely outfitted that can make things more difficult than they need to be.

2. Level design is kinda. . . all over the place. Some more direction about where your objectives should be located within the level, and a bit more reasonable flow to the architecture and layouts would be nice. Everything's a little too mazelike right now.

Can't say that I recommend it at the moment; with more polish and a bit more balance it could be pretty good.

[wildweasel]

I got lost on the first map, having no idea where to go after activating the reactor and going up every elevator I could find, including the ones that you have to jump out windows to reach. Also, yeah, the enemies are massively punishing, especially the Undead Imps, which are capable of instant-killing a player with near full health and no armor with very little chance to dodge in the places that you've put them.

[Tango]

As for all the fuss - I consider it to be an indication of the project's success. It seems that every major project in recent years had had a shitstorm of a reception.

i suppose that would explain why Doomguy's Warzone was such a success too?

but seriously. what about AV? Darken2? Vanguard? Scythe2? Thunderpeak? Action Doom/2? RTC? how much fuss was there in the community about those? if it's some sort of experimental mapset with limited appeal, then sure, there will be controversy. but the issue here isn't just the fact it's for GZDoom, it's that--yes i'm going to say it--there seems to be a clear lack of effort in some respects. some of the areas look really great, but there's already been a huge handful posted in this thread of the areas that look pretty sub-par. and in such cases it would take minimal effort to change that, but apparently ReX is hiding behind the "it's like that because i like it like that, everything is art! everyone is a winner!" excuse.

i've also seen quite a few small comments regarding visuals being sub-par, aside from myself/essel/Darkhaven, and you saw the DW thread from last year, but somehow we're still a minority?

[Enjay]

To be clear - I have no problem what so ever with people criticising a project. I have no problem with people saying that a project isn't to their taste. I have no problem with someone pointing out even an enormous list of things that are either genuinely wrong with a WAD or which are sub-par in the individual's own opinion. The thing is, it's how they are pointed out.

There is a difference between there being controversy because a map set is "experimental" and there being controversy because people are behaving like dicks. The first is to be expected and is reasonable. It can lead to good, positive discussions where we can all benefit. The second may be expected but it is not reasonable. It also tends to deteriorate into a shouting match with people taking sides and generally arguing about many things unrelated to the actual project.

You say that there appears to be a real lack of effort in some areas. I can accept that as coming close to a valid criticism and with a few screenshots and perhaps even some suggestions for the areas in question, it would even be helpful. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't want to speak for Rex but the "it's like that because I like it like that, everything is art! everyone is a winner!" is a valid point for some of the things that have been raised. The non-looping music in E1M1 would fit into that category IMO.

As for the WADs you mentioned, I'd suggest that calling them recent releases is stretching it for a few of them but I hope it is obvious that my comment re controversy=success wasn't intended entirely seriously.

One thing that did intrigue me, however, is where you say "if it's some sort of experimental mapset with limited appeal... but the issue here isn't just the fact it's for GZDoom". Have we not moved beyond a point where GZDoom = "experimental"? OpenGL ports have been around for years. GZDoom has been around for years. Projects that make far more extensive use of OpenGL (and specifically GZDoom) features have already been made (and look at the maps that Sitters and Abs have been making for Risen3D for years). Surely just being for GZDoom and using a few GZDoom features isn't enough to make a project experimental these days is it?


However, I stick by my main point that people getting unnecessarily pissy and rude when all that has happened is that they have been offered the chance to play a new project for free that someone spent their own spare time making is an unacceptable way to behave. A person doesn't have to like a particular project, but there are ways of dealing with that. Going on the offensive is not that way.

[ReX]

I guess this means you won't be trying to defend the wad against any of the points he made, then.

"Defending" against an angry tirade that sounds like it came from a kindergartner in play-room? Heh. You amuse me. But to amuse you in turn, let me do a point-by-point "defense".

This looks about as silly as I recall it being almost a year ago. Big square rooms with misaligned textures all over the place and filled to the brim with 3D constructs, swimming pools in the middle of random rooms, and other unnecessary jumble-fucks in which the effort spent designing them could have gone into making something other than a square room or a hallway. Or for god's sake, a different sky.

Yes, there are "big, square rooms", but there are plenty of non-square rooms. Many more so, I'd venture, than the square rooms (of which DooM E1 had its fair share). Should I redesign a map that I, and many others, believe has the right balance of form and function because a loudmouth thinks every room needs to stray from a rectangular design?

Comments on "misaligned textures all over the place" are based on a narrowly-defined precept of what aligned textures ought to be. For my part, "wall-papering" (against which darkhaven and you have such problems) is reasonable and acceptable, especially if the wall is curved or odd-shaped. Are you or darkhaven the final authority on which walls STAR* textures may be used? If you believe that wall-papering will somehow diminish your own maps, by all means, avoid it like the plague. But telling the rest of us that you are right and we are wrong flies in the face of over a decade of what seems to have worked in other maps.

"... filled to the brim with 3D constructs". It is a GZDooM project, is it not?

"... swimming pools in random rooms": [They are pools, and you can swim in them. I suppose that makes them swimming pools.] Shit, what possessed me to put those pools in? I ought to have taken a page out of id's game design book and only put in stuff that made sense. Like they did in every single area in every one of their maps.

"... other unnecessary jumble-fucks in which the effort spent designing them could have gone into making something other than a square room or a hallway": I suspect that darkhaven does not ever take his "jumble-fuck" glasses off. He could be looking at Van Gogh's self portrait and claim that Van Gogh should have spent his time painting in his missing ear. Still, he is entitled to his opinion that it's a jumble-fuck. That does not, however, entitle him to get agreement from me. The simple fact is that I don't agree with him in this regard. Does the notion that he speaks in an abusive manner make his opinion superior to mine? Perhaps I ought to try it out by insulting everyone with whom I disagree.

"... Or for god's sake, a different sky": Something wrong with the Episode I sky? He may not like the looks of the modified skies, but I do. Should I be defending my preference?

After playing through the first couple of maps, I have to say that nothing is more annoying in this world than to be cut down at sniping distance by an automatic shotgunner.... Automatic shotgunners, demons that attack you as quickly as normal pinkies in -fastmonsters, blatant refusal to align a single texture in the entire map...

About the shotgunner, I'm guessing he felt that way when he first encountered the chaingunner in DooM 2. Heh. But kidding aside, the faster-shooting shotgunner is just another modified enemy in the game's bestiary. The same with the Sand Demon. You learn to respect them and deal with them like you'd deal with a slightly more dangerous adversary. Why not mention the Hell Viscount, or the Duke of Mayhem, or the Barbatos then? The text files clearly state that there are modified and tougher enemies. Just because he doesn't like them does not mean that I should revert to the stock-DooM enemies. [Incidentally, the tougher new enemies are used sparingly.]

This mod is... really bad. I'm not really sure how it's possible for a single mod to be quite so ludicrously and laughably awful, but now I can safely say that Tormentor667 is not chiefly responsible for the single worst Episode 1 redesign in existence.

And, right there is the reason I chose not to respond to any of his posts in the first place. Do you seriously expect that he would have changed his attitude if I had "defended" the mod?

E1M1's music stops after one loop, leaving me completely in radio silence for the rest of my tenure in this hub. E1M2 has no music, apparently, and E1M3's loops in over itself to create the most intensely unappealing cacophony of god-awful noise I have ever witnessed in a Doom mod. This wouldn't be such a huge complaint if I had been playing and there had been some kind of music or at least ambient noise throughout the game, but I nearly killed my ears for life when I had the volume turned up a little and then suddenly TNT MAP30 IN YOUR FACE.

The choice of using music to punctuate the maps rather than looping it was a creative decision, and has been covered by Enjay and others. darkhaven didn't like it. I do. Do I really need to defend my decision? As for E1M3, I'm not sure what caused the looping "in over itself", as the music is designed to end without looping. It's never happened to any of the testers, so I'm not quite sure if this is a bug or a one-off occurrence. And he's blaming me for turning up the volume and then being assaulted by the music? Good one.

Next time, if you could, please consider putting effort into making this room something other than a boring STARGR* square and skip the bargain-bin-N64-game detailing.

I'm not sure what "bargain-bin-N64-game detailing" means, but I'll grant him this one. darkhaven, one. The Persecution Complex Team, ten.

Why do some slimefalls have brightmaps and the nukage is left without one? What's with the FLAT22-- is it a teleporter pad or a light fixture? It would help if something in this mod - anything - was consistent.

Nukage in "deep water" sectors apparently cannot display the brightmap/GL glow. I asked about this on the DRDTeam GZDooM forums.

...Okay, it's consistently a bad mod, I'll give you that one.

Bazinga!

How does this room have even * * * l e s s * * * interesting features than the IWAD map it's based on?

I'll grant him this one too. darkhaven, two. The Persecution Complex Team, twelve. [By way of clarification, the intention was to avoid going overboard with detailing & 3D usage in the "core" parts of each map. But I see darkhaven's point in this instance.]

So now are we playing a game of Perfection gone horribly wrong?]

Curious how he thinks that DooM E1, with its laughable texture alignment and general lack of what we define nowadays as "detail", is a "game of Perfection", yet all his comments on The Phobos Directive pertain to lack of texture alignment and detailing. You seriously want me to argue with him about this?

ReX said:
God damn, I just love these arch things, I'm going to just put them everywhere.

So he doesn't like them. I do. [See my response to the sky issue, above.]

Holy shit. I could go on for days. But it just wouldn't serve any purpose. This is an irreparably bad set of maps. I just... I don't know what to think of KDIZD anymore. Dare I say KDIZD looks playable compared to this? I guess. But that isn't saying alot.

More verbal jerking off. Not worthy of a response. [Not that it would have made a difference.]

Well, I'm not saying it's just the rooms by themselves that make it so bad to me either; it's the clear lack of effort put into making decent layouts. Like the E1M2 exit room; it's the same exact shape as it was originally, and still contains the lift and switch... But the lift has a blue key, and there's nothing - not even a monster - in the bottom floor. And the switch just lowers the lift in case you got stuck.... Like, why is that lift even there?

"Clear lack of effort": He said it on the Internet. Therefore it must be true. Why didn't I think of that? I should call him a bit of a dick (i.e., a prepuce), and because I now have witnesses it must be true.

"... into making decent layouts": This is a 9-map hub that allows the player to move freely back and forth, and to choose the order in which to play some maps; many maps have multiple paths that allow you to reach your destination, offering some replayability value. Now he may not have liked the game design, but I doubt he's an authority on what constitutes a "decent layout".

And that would be fine if .... it wasn't as obvious the mod wasn't properly playtested.

The point of play-testing is, first and foremost, to make sure nothing is broken. After that, it serves to determine if the game can be made more fun (that nebulous concept, which subjectively covers excitement, challenge, looks, balance, etc.) Finally, it serves to identify things that can add spit & polish to the game. With the exception of the comment about the shotgunners and Sand Demon, his comments were primarily about the looks. The play-testers obviously didn't see eye-to-eye with darkhaven in the "looks" department when testing the game, which went through three betas before the final release. That does not mean it wasn't properly play-tested.

One of our testers did recommend more GZDooM 3D structures in the core areas, and I did add some to the extent that they did not detract from the look we had intended for the core areas. [To clarify, we wanted to add detail to the core areas, but without making them look too far different from the original. In my opinion, we have achieved this objective. But feel free to disagree without insults and personal attacks.] I'll go out on a limb and say darkhaven is talking through his very tight asshole when he says we didn't thoroughly play-test.

It's things like that, which add up over the course of the entire mod to make it an overall poor experience to me.

I'll be the first to accept that this mod is not for everyone. And darkhaven has stated in no uncertain terms that he doesn't like it. But he hasn't offered any compelling reasons for me to want to change the game significantly. If you disagree, re-read this post again.

Some things never change I suppose.

I didn't feel the need to "defend" my choices back then, and I see no reason to do it now. You don't like my texture choices or the way I apply them to walls? Good for you. But don't imagine for a moment that your anal attention to texturing somehow makes your work better than those who don't share your choices.

You, sir, are a .... what's the name for it? The ugly, hairy thing that tends to live under bridges and occasionally comes out to visit forums? I'll get the name one of these days.

[Big C]

And once again a boondoggle begins because people take a decade-plus-year-old game REALLY DAMN SERIOUSLY.

Why do I frequent this forum again?

[ReX]

I got lost on the first map, having no idea where to go after activating the reactor and going up every elevator I could find, including the ones that you have to jump out windows to reach. Also, yeah, the enemies are massively punishing, especially the Undead Imps, which are capable of instant-killing a player with near full health and no armor with very little chance to dodge in the places that you've put them.

When you turn the "reactor" on you get a message telling you that the teleporter pads are activated. [Incidentally, when you start the game and try to step onto any of those nearby teleporters, you get a message telling you to turn the reactor on.]

When I play the first map in a multi-map wad with new enemies, weapons, and items, I usually play somewhat cautiously. This allows me to learn the strengths and weaknesses of the enemies/obstacles, which I then take advantage of in later maps. I realize that this is not what many players play DooM for; however, The Phobos Directive gives players plenty of run-and-gun action later.

[esselfortium]

One thing that did intrigue me, however, is where you say "if it's some sort of experimental mapset with limited appeal... but the issue here isn't just the fact it's for GZDoom". Have we not moved beyond a point where GZDoom = "experimental"? OpenGL ports have been around for years. GZDoom has been around for years. Projects that make far more extensive use of OpenGL (and specifically GZDoom) features have already been made (and look at the maps that Sitters and Abs have been making for Risen3D for years). Surely just being for GZDoom and using a few GZDoom features isn't enough to make a project experimental these days is it?

However, I stick by my main point that people getting unnecessarily pissy and rude when all that has happened is that they have been offered the chance to play a new project for free that someone spent their own spare time making is an unacceptable way to behave. A person doesn't have to like a particular project, but there are ways of dealing with that. Going on the offensive is not that way.

I think you might be misreading (or I am), as I'm pretty sure Tango meant that this wasn't some weird super-experimental thing, and just meant that the tendency of the "well you guys just hate it because it's modern" excuse that keeps popping up when a major G/ZDoom project is criticized. It happens here, it happens even with some on Doomworld, it happens on other forums, and it makes it impossible to give critique to any of these projects without being dismissed at best and ridiculed at worst.

Sloped surfaces? Detail when it's not 100% required for gameplay purposes!? Yeah, I can see how this would piss off some of the old curmudgeons.

Like.. really.

It doesn't even matter what you actually thought about it or how many modern/advanced/detailed projects you yourself have worked on; you're an old-fashioned idiot for not liking any GZDoom project with a fancy logo attached.

While I can't defend how quickly Darkhaven jumped to the offensive, I can speak from experience that it can be pretty maddening to spend your own free time playing and writing about issues with a project only to have them all scoffed at by the authors and their fans, with your opinion derided as invalid or unimportant. I'm not going to name more names, because I shouldn't really have to.