DoomRL Arsenal - [1.1.5] [MP-B7.3]

[Marrub]

aaghsphere best pickup renegade4lyf
edit: renegade for pageking

[KILLER2]

Also, I wouldn't say Renegade is underpowered. Have you seen the amazing shotguns you can get? You don't need a demonic shotgun when you have a rotating tri-barreled monstrocity in your hands.

You mean the one that's a master assembly? Yes, I know about it, I've seen all of the weapons via cheats. Any master assembly is bonkers for any class. But as far as exotics, [whatever the orange rarity is], and the lack of demonic main weapon (the only class that has a main weapon but doesn't have a demonic version, btw) and the scarcity of legendary main weapons (as 4thcharacter pointed out, he has one), he seems kind of meh. Also, his passive armor ability feels meh, since it doesn't work on armors that are powerful enough anyways and it's really nothing compared to some other abilities (invincible to blast damage, anyone?).
Underpowered doesn't necessarely mean unplayable, it just means he's on a lower power level than the other classes.

instant weapon-switching

That is, indeed, strong. But so are the other classes' abilities.

Conquerors, anything built off the plasma or heavy hunting shotties, auto-shotties, shredder shotty, this is before we even get into uniques and higher

The fact that almost all of those are assemblies (one of them being a master assembly at that) doesn't really help the rengade's case much. The only ones that aren't assemblies, the auto-shotguns, combine meh damage with meh accuaracy to make a meh weapon that fires fast. Meh. This is in contrast with the scout who can just find a combat pistol and be super happy, the marine who can just find a minigun, battle-rifle and plasma rifle and be super-happy, and the demo-man, who might not be super happy early on but he gets to fire the BFG's twice as much and is immune to explosions. He also starts of with the most powerful starting weapon (sans a lucky technician). Still, it's worth mentioning that the tristar blaster is a weapon that will make him super happy while being an exotic.

Hells bells, even something simple like a heavy double shotty will tide you over fine.

Yes, a "simple" assembly will do the trick.

He is not as strong as the other classes, disappointingly enough. I actually love shotguns. I try to make them my main weapon in most games I play. And hell, is renegade so weak it's unplayable? As I said earlier, not at all. But he does suffer from a lack of options, weak commons and exotics, and over-reliance on assemblies (perhaps moreso than even technician, and we're talking about a class with no additional modpack slots or easy acces to modpacks).

[Viscra Maelstrom]

Renegade is definitely a strong character, what are you talking about? instant weapon-switching and tankier armor are great passive effects, and shotguns are a mainstay in many a Doom level. and if there are no shotguns? instant weapon switching. the key to his power is to switch guns at the right moment to give the enemy a good one-two punch. and he's gotten way more assemblies so variety crops up more often. a Scout with a Combat Pistol is pretty good, but a Renegade with a Double Shotgun can handle most situations well.

i do agree that the Marine and Demoman are by far the strongest classes in the mod, though. that doesn't mean Renegade is bad though, he's really rad. i'm not sure what your dismay over assemblies is about, assemblies are a key-part of the mod, and learning how to make better assemblies makes your classes stronger.

[KILLER2]

i do agree that the Marine and Demoman are by far the strongest classes in the mod, though. that doesn't mean Renegade is bad though, he's really rad. i'm not sure what your dismay over assemblies is about, assemblies are a key-part of the mod, and learning how to make better assemblies makes your classes stronger.

I don't have a dismay over assemblies. I have a dismay over classes relying on them for either variety or efficiency (besides the technician, duh). If all classes (sans tech for obvious reasons) can work fine off of just commons and/or exotics and the other can't (the double shotty/super shotty are OK but IMO inferior when compared to the combat pistol for scout or the CR/plasma rifle/minigun for marine), then that class is comparably worse. Remember that mod packs aren't always readily available, and not everyone knows the recipes for all assemblies.
The other problem I have with your "assemblies bring variety to renegate" argument is that it's moot. AFAIK renegade doesn't have more assemblies for his main weapons than the other classes have for theirs. This basically means that since he has less base weapons than other classes, he also has less assemblies, and therefore less options overall.
As for the "muh Megaton, muh Conqueror", how about the frigging Zeus Cannon, Laser Minigun and demolition ammo weapons (of which shotguns get none IIRC) etc.? They seem on par with the renegade master assemblies.

Let's be honest here, I think everyone can agree renegade (and to a lesser degree scout) need the most love for the new version, and I'm almost sure they'll be getting it (it's basically almost confirmed for scout by Yholl).

[Infirnex]

Renegade is ridiculously powerful ._.

Megaton Shotgun is FAR beyond the Laser Minigun (which, btw, any other class can use to the same exact amount of efficiency), and won't kill yourself with the demo ammo. Admittedly, I haven't made the Zeus Cannon, but still, the Megaton Shotgun is ridiculous.

Renegade has a demonic weapon in Hell's Reign.

I still think the Marine is damn near useless unless you can't manage ammo. I don't understand how everyone finds him powerful. Every other class out damages him.

[KILLER2]

Megaton Shotgun is FAR beyond the Laser Minigun (which, btw, any other class can use to the same exact amount of efficiency).

No...since it's a rapid fire weapon the marine can use it a lot more, both ammo-wise and damage wise (less time spent reloading means more overall DPS, not to mention you get 4x the damage you would get otherwise if you deplete all your ammo in one go).
As for Megaton being far beyond the laser minigun, I just did a quick test. It took me less than 1/5 of a laser minigun magazine to kill a cyberdemon, during which it was mostly stunned. It took me 2 magazines of the Megaton, and the reolad time on that weapon is fairly long. The delay between shots is also longish, although it does trigger a pain-state whenever it's used. Obviously, the shotgun is a lot better for hit-and-run than the laser minigun, but that doesn't mean it's better, it just means it's different.

Renegade has a demonic weapon in Hell's Reign.

Oh...I didn't actually realize that it counts for his passive. Damn...that's actually pretty damn strong with his effect.

I still think the Marine is damn near useless unless you can't manage ammo. I don't understand how everyone finds him powerful. Every other class out damages him.

Sure, managing ammo seems really easy on maps where ammo isn't scarce and with regular doom/DRLA Monsterpack. However, the bullet-sponge higher-rarity enemies and bosses in CH might want to have a little talk with you. As for out-damaging, sure, but you forget the fact that marine also stunlocks most targets while damaging them and is great at suppressing fire.

And for the last time, people, I am not saying he's weak! I am just saying he could use a bit of help. But then again, let's just wait for the next version and see how things develop. And I will concede that I am probably wrong on some things as I didn't play the mod all that much (tbh I stopped playing it entirely when I heard a new version is coming soon).

[Infirnex]

No...since it's a rapid fire weapon the marine can use it a lot more, both ammo-wise and damage wise (less time spent reloading means more overall DPS, not to mention you get 4x the damage you would get otherwise if you deplete all your ammo in one go).

I'm not getting in this argument again. The DPS, by definition, doesn't factor in reloading time. That's stupid. Even if it did, the Laser Minigun reloads so stupidly fast that it doesn't even matter. Point being, though, the damage is exactly the same for the marine as literally any other class. In fact, the renegade gets a pretty big boost with it by being able to pull it out much faster. That's extremely helpful. And goes along with this point too:

As for out-damaging, sure, but you forget the fact that marine also stunlocks most targets while damaging them

This is nothing explicit for the marine. You can use other weapons on other classes and be effective with them.

The only, and literally only benefit is ammo conservation for fully automatic weapons and longer pickups. That's it. To me, that's pretty lackluster than straight damage upgrades (with the renegades being quite helpful, and the scouts being extremely helpful), complete immunity to splash and as a result a large amount of major hazards in the game, or mastery of the modpacks that define a large amount of the mod.

[Kaeoschassis]

I'm gonna come out and say it. If there are people determined that the marine is stronger, and people determined that the renegade is stronger, both classes are probably fine.

[mutator]

doomrpg is very smooth mod and I love it you guys can actually run smooth rpg mod without launching it with doomrl

[KILLER2]

The DPS, by definition, doesn't factor in reloading time.

Citation needed.

Point being, though, the damage is exactly the same for the marine as literally any other class.

This is simply wrong. The damage is the same assuming you got infinite ammo (which is a non-sensical in most practical cases). If you fire continuously with it without picking up any ammo you'll do 4x the damage (since any other class would have ran out of ammo 4 times faster).

Even if it did, the Laser Minigun reloads so stupidly fast that it doesn't even matter.

That sounds good on paper, until you realize that stupidly fast (which is debatable anyways) reload happens 4 times more for any other class. 4 times stupidly fast still means plenty of dead time.

This is nothing explicit for the marine. You can use other weapons on other classes and be effective with them.

You can use shotguns as a non-renegade class and be effective with them. That was not the point.

[Infirnex]

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Point being, though, the damage is exactly the same for the marine as literally any other class.

This is simply wrong. The damage is the same assuming you got infinite ammo (which is a non-sensical in most practical cases). If you fire continuously with it without picking up any ammo you'll do 4x the damage (since any other class would have ran out of ammo 4 times faster).

This is simply wrong. The damage is NOT the same assuming you have infinite ammo. The full-auto shotgun, for example.
The renegade has much higher damage with it that the Marine. The marine may have more ammo to use it, but, and this is a very important part you are missing, this does not directly contribute to more damage. It is just ammo. You are not going to win fights any quicker.

The renegade will end any fight quicker with a full auto shotgun than the marine will. Period. That's cause the renegade gets more damage with it, while the marine does not.

Even if it did, the Laser Minigun reloads so stupidly fast that it doesn't even matter.

That sounds good on paper, until you realize that stupidly fast (which is debatable anyways) reload happens 4 times more for any other class. 4 times stupidly fast still means plenty of dead time.

You are presuming you empty the extremely large mag in a firefight, don't have the ability to dodge properly during said reload time, or can't switch to another weapon (which, btw, the renegade does extremely well). Not being able to dodge is 9/10 a fault of the receiver, while not thinking to switch to another weapon is the same problem.

This is nothing explicit for the marine. You can use other weapons on other classes and be effective with them.

You can use shotguns as a non-renegade class and be effective with them. That was not the point.

Except not. Shotguns gain a large damage boost from the renegade. Marine doesn't gain a damage boost, just ammo. Ammo conservation is something you have the ability to control. However, every other class is something you can NOT. The Marine's ability is a handicap for the player. That's it.

Now for a suggestion: Do you think the Shreader Pistol could be applied to at least one other pistol? Maybe the PP7 (which also sorely needs the silencer as well)? It's a nice assembly but quickly gets overshadowed.

[KILLER2]

I guess spoilering the thing is a good way to not use thread space
I don't care if you respond to this or not, by the way, but if you do I will continue to try to refute you unless what you say is correct.

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This is simply wrong. The damage is NOT the same assuming you have infinite ammo. The full-auto shotgun, for example.
The renegade has much higher damage with it that the Marine. The marine may have more ammo to use it, but, and this is a very important part you are missing, this does not directly contribute to more damage. It is just ammo. You are not going to win fights any quicker.The renegade will end any fight quicker with a full auto shotgun than the marine will. Period. That's cause the renegade gets more damage with it, while the marine does not.

That is only partially true. Sure, they will end a fight quicker. However, if the marine is tasked with killing 16 imps with 4 shells, the marine can do that. The renegade, however, can only kill 4+50%*4=6. That is because the renegade's ability adds 50% more damage, while the marines adds 300% more damage. I never claimed you can win fights any quicker, and IDK where you got that crazy idea for. I was talking about damage as a whole in this particular case, not DPS. The only conceivable case in which a marine does the same damage or less as any other class with a rapid-fire weapon is if we assume infinite ammo. This is a baseless assumption, and as such makes no sense whatsoever.

You are presuming you empty the extremely large mag in a firefight, don't have the ability to dodge properly during said reload time, or can't switch to another weapon (which, btw, the renegade does extremely well). Not being able to dodge is 9/10 a fault of the receiver, while not thinking to switch to another weapon is the same problem.

You are presuming you don't empty an extremely large mag in a firefight (which is, again, baseless;who is to say I'm not playing a slaughtermap?), you are assuming there is always enough room to dodge properly (baseless), you are assuming hitscanners make up 10% of the level's population (baseless), you are assuming I have another weapon that has ammo and fits the situation (baseless). I could also make baseless assumptions (such as the your 50% bonus damage being wasted because the whole level is comprised of scarcely placed imps/former humans that die in one shot anyways, but that would be silly, wouldn't it?).

Except not. Shotguns gain a large damage boost from the renegade. Marine doesn't gain a damage boost, just ammo. Ammo conservation is something you have the ability to control. However, every other class is something you can NOT. The Marine's ability is a handicap for the player. That's it.

But you can still use the shotguns effectively as a marine (i.e.:you can still kill shit with them). My point was, just as renegade can use shotguns MORE effectively, the marine can use rapid fire weapons MORE effectively. This is obvious when you realize a marine reloads 1/4 of the time other classes do, and time spent reloading is 0 DPS time while time spent shooting is NOT 0 DPS time. He also gains more damage because he can fire the guns more (time spent firing isn't 0 DPS time while time not spent firing cuz u have no ammo/gotta look for ammo IS 0 DPS time).

Now on to your little "ammo conservation is something you have control over". This is a baseless assumption. Sure, under normal gameplay, all maps are supposed to play fine with the ammo in the level. That is, however, not the case if you add another gameplay mod that makes monsters tougher to kill (CH for instance). Saying not consuming ammo is useless is like saying healing 2x from medpacks would be a useless ability because you shouldn't lose health in the first place. It looks true on the surface but dig a bit deeper and you realize there are plenty of situations that you are not considering.

[Extropist]

Copying code *IS* that hard because you can't just splice things in and expect them to work magically. Besides, you'd have to import a bunch of Brutal DooM assets.

If you have sprites writing code is piece of cake. The sprites are the worst part. Been there, saw it.

[skyrish10]

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aaghsphere best pickup renegade4lyf
edit: renegade for pageking

The aaghsphere is very rare powerup, i got that sphere through use of the nano-modded Reality Distortion Array (a legendary weapon), what it does it rains shotguns while playing the long aaagh sound

[KILLER2]

skyrish10 you should really learn to spoiler the spoilery things that might spoil someone's unspoiled enjoyment for this mod. Geddit?