Next release: Real 3D floors?

David Ferstat · Post by **David Ferstat** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:51 am

Vader wrote:isn´t it possible to make decals displayed on the floor?
In combination with the K2 bridge it would make a really cool 3dfloor (like the ones in duke3d).

Unfortunately, here again the rendering engine is the problem. It treats flats (ceilings, floors and slopes) quite differently from walls. Last we heard, Randy said that the (quite substantial) work required to change this pushed decals on flats way down the queue.

HotWax · Post by **HotWax** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:54 am

Vader: No it's not possible to display decals on the floor, due to the optimizations in the flat renderer.

Woolie Wool · Post by **Woolie Wool** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:48 pm

Well, remember this:

Legacy has 3D floors, and it sucks
EDGE has 3D floors, and it also sucks
Vavoom has 3D floors, and it doesn't even feel like Doom

3D floors are not worth it if the results make ZDoom like any of the above.

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:38 am

The thing is that if and when Zdoom has 3D floors it will still feel like doom and be good. This is because it has a strong comunity and a really decent programmer.

The flaws of those other ports are factors of what I just said (lack of a comunity and co-operation between programmeres... also note that Zdoom is one of the best and only has 1 programmer... legacy has more than one and the resaults are pritty bad...).

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:14 am

Woolie Wool wrote:Well, remember this:

Legacy has 3D floors, and it sucks
EDGE has 3D floors, and it also sucks
Vavoom has 3D floors, and it doesn't even feel like Doom

3D floors are not worth it if the results make ZDoom like any of the above.

Don't blame 3D floors for the suckiness of these engines.

Legacy sucks because it is sloppily programmed and that includes the 3D floor stuff.
EDGE sucks because... (well, I don't know why it sucks because I have used it so rarely but it most definitely doesn't suck because it has 3D floors)
Vavoom sucks because it gutted all the code that makes Doom what it is. Don't be surprised to get something bad if you make an engine that can play Doom levels in a Quake like environment.

Risen · Post by **Risen** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:06 am

EDGE sucks because it hasn't even run on my system in a very long time.

Post by **TheDarkArchon** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:54 pm

Lack of compatability (Backwards or otherwise) is what makes EDGE suck.

dochist · Post by **dochist** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:18 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:
Vavoom sucks because it gutted all the code that makes Doom what it is. Don't be surprised to get something bad if you make an engine that can play Doom levels in a Quake like environment.[/quote wrote:
i never had problems with vavoom. i think it rules. and i dropped zdoom for vavoom for this hexen thing im doing.

Post by **TheDarkArchon** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:34 pm

Vavoom tries to beat EVERY other source port at their own games. And it fails miserably on all levels.

The 3D models are not as smooth as JDoom.

ZDoom has better script and has more lumps (KEYCONF, DECORATE).

EDGE is easier to edit and is more open ended than VaVoom C.

It is easier to implement 3D floors in Legacy.

ALL of the above are more compatable than VaVoom.

And last but not least, it's run and automap code is shit.

Case closed.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:16 pm

dochist wrote:i never had problems with vavoom. i think it rules. and i dropped zdoom for vavoom for this hexen thing im doing.

Well, search for 'Silent Steel' in the /newstuff reviews and read the review itself and the reactions. It's a nice WAD but the reaction was not particularly positive.

wildweasel · Post by **wildweasel** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:25 pm

I won't say EDGE sucks. It's not my preferred port, but I enjoy all the mods that are put out for it, and I also enjoy making mods for it because the engine is more flexible than ZDoom. Unlimited sprites, unlimited sounds, as many weapons as you like, dynamic lights and all sorts of effects for stuff. And most of all, Immoral Conduct.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:26 pm

TheDarkArchon wrote:Vavoom tries to beat EVERY other source port at their own games. And it fails miserably on all levels.

The 3D models are not as smooth as JDoom.

I can't say much about that. I don't use both engines on a regular basis but it wouldn't surprise me considering that Vavoom's renderer is ugly as hell.

ZDoom has better script and has more lumps (KEYCONF, DECORATE).

Again not surprising. All Vavoom has is Hexen's original ACS interpreter with no additions whatsoever. Worse, although it theoretically supports everything needed for proper Boom support it is totally non-existent. The engine can barely play vanilla levels (far too many have visual glitches) and is thus only suited to run custom WADs for itself.

EDGE is easier to edit and is mode open ended than VaVoom C.

VavoomC is a good idea in theory but the implementation of it means that nothing at all is gained over a true C implementation like ZDoom. You still have to recompile EVERYTHING to add one measly item to the game - even the simplest decoration. I'd take DECORATE any time (well, not surprising since I invented a large part of it...

.) But EDGE still has some capabilities ZDoom doesn't. In the end it doesn't help. DDF has been around for a few years now and not much has been done with it. The monster additions for DECORATE have been around for 6 1/2 months and already we have a huge monster WAD and also a few other releases which make good use of it.

It is easier to implement 3D floors in Legacy.

Definitely. Although admittedly if you have a working implementation for Legacy's 3D floors it'd be a piece of cake to support Vavoom's types with it. The floor/ceiling swapping was utterly [censored word] though because it unnecessarily messes with error checkers.

ALL of the above are more compatable than VaVoom.

Yes, even Legacy...

And last but not least, it's run and automap code is shit.

Definitely

Case closed.

Indeed.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:29 pm

wildweasel wrote:I won't say EDGE sucks. It's not my preferred port, but I enjoy all the mods that are put out for it, and I also enjoy making mods for it because the engine is more flexible than ZDoom.

Unlimited sprites,

ZDoom has this, too.

unlimited sounds,

ditto.

as many weapons as you like,

2.0.64

dynamic lights

ZDoomGL (next release)

and all sorts of effects for stuff. And most of all, Immoral Conduct.

Yes, unfortunately all that is done for EDGE are TC's. I want to play Doom when I play Doom!

wildweasel · Post by **wildweasel** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:34 pm

Did I mention ease of use? I'm absolutely useless with C-style languages, and I can't handle Decorate...

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:27 pm

DECORATE was inspired to a large degree by the monster definition capabilities of DDF. The difference in syntax comes mainly from Hexen's script parser which is used to read them. If you do a careful 1:1 comparison you will find lots of similarities in there and there is no C like stuff in there.
As for ACS, well, that's your loss because IMO RTS is a pathetic scripting language with its batch like approach. It can't do much with such a limited syntax.

Ease of use is a very subjective thing and I like my scripting languages well structured.