[WIP] Urban Pacification

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CorSair
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by CorSair »

Oh goodness. So many weapons. Yet, you can pick up few of them. :surprise:

Anyways, here's some of my opinions about them. And few questions... (And first ones came by when I looked the video.)


The MP-5 sounds awesome. Nothing seems to fit perfectly than that.
Also, SMG/shotgun with chainsaw edge? D:
About those double barreled shotguns... What differences are between them? Also, quad barrel shotguns are always approved.
And the energy shotgun at 4:16... I would prefer toned down wheeze. My ears started to hurt. :P
What. Triminigun?

Otherwise, some guns feels they are only for decoration. Are there any significant differences, aside from sounds and sprites? Like, some gun does more damage for reduced ROF and accuracy?

About the gun sprites... How many you have done? And what are "ripoffs" from others?
This question is just only for my curiosity, not to slander. :wink:


I might keep eye on this. You got helluva lot of doing in this project.:D
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HellCattX
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by HellCattX »

the shotguns do different damages, pellet amounts and spread. They are chambered in 12g (red) 16g (black) 20g (blue) .410g (small red) and Explosive/Slug (Green)
There is a smg with a chainsaw and a shotgun with exposive buck shot with a chainsaw.
sounds are still getting tweeked thanks for the note though.
some guns are class specific, and you'll be unable to pick up certain guns if your the wrong class.
I have made a fair few in the mod, and there is a fair few i havent. Most have come from either realm 667, or here, but as always there is a credit list included for those sprite i did use.
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wildweasel
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by wildweasel »

HellCattX wrote:the shotguns do different damages, pellet amounts and spread. They are chambered in 12g (red) 16g (black) 20g (blue) .410g (small red) and Explosive/Slug (Green)
Does that mean that every single shotgun has a different ammo type? Wouldn't that get kind of, y'know, messy?
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HellCattX
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by HellCattX »

not persay, there is a pump gun and a double barrled both chamabered for 12g, 16g, ect ect, and a .410 shotgun shell only has 4 pellets and minor damage, where a 12g is bigger 8 and does more damage, 20g has alot of pellets but very little damage, 16g has medium power and about 5 pellets. the combo shotgun is the only one that uses two ammo types, as it takes 2 12g rounds or 2 30-30 rounds. All damage is relative, so if your firing a 9mm handugn, the 9mm smg will do the same damage, so it better to find the bigger guns, just ammo wont be as plentiful. Most firearns are modeled are real life counter parts, with ammo proper ammo. The only one that doesnt follow is one of the heavy handguns, it uses a .50-47 round, where in real life, only 1 revolver used it, and not for that long.
As i said earlier, all i was initialy trying to do was see how much i could add before i broke the wad, i am still adding lol, once the weapons are done, comes the monsters, then maps / props as i need em type thing. the multiplayer map is also getting revamped, so weapons dont all spawn on the map, but have multiplayer weapon and ammo spawners instead, that give ammo for the gun you have, and randomly spawns weapons from its class at weapons pickups.
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wildweasel
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by wildweasel »

Okay - please don't tell me you're going to be able to get most/all of those at once through normal gameplay...
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hitmanx
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by hitmanx »

Oh man. Quality over quantity please!

Almost every single weapon has animations that make the doom defaults look smooth. Especially the melee weapons, no one swings a bat that slowly. Whether this is your fault or not I don't know, a lot of the sounds are unfitting or horribly low quality, and a lot of them look exactly the same. Why have like 8 pistols? if there isn't even reloading the only difference is damage and rate of fire, and they all seem to fire about the same speed so why not just pick the most damaging one, why would anyone use any of the others?

I just think it'd be better to focus on a few weapons and make them really nice to play with rather then about 100 medicore weapons.
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wildweasel
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by wildweasel »

@hitmanx, Yes, yes, a million times yes. I honestly haven't been watching your preview videos, but seriously, these weapons need a lot more love - what's the point of having 88+ weapons if none of them are fun to use? Start playing other peoples' mods, and really recent FPS games, and look really closely at weapons that you like to see what's so cool about them. If you fire a weapon and the only thing you notice about it is "it does damage," then you aren't looking closely enough.

I'd like to clarify some of this stuff that I've observed from recent FPS games, and from making my own mods...
  • Recoil. Not necessarily the type where you'll end up shooting the ceiling, and absolutely not the type where you stand the chance of falling off a ledge from firing a shotgun, but at least "felt" or "perceived" recoil. The weapon should have a SHARP kickback on screen (i.e. make the weapon sprite kick back very quickly!) and should recover back to its initial on-screen position smoothly. Here's a (crude) graph.

    Code: Select all

    A
            B
                    C
              D
          E
       F
     G
    A
    To read this graph, assume that the letter on each line corresponds to your weapon's animation frame, and the indentation depicts how far back on screen the weapon sprite will be on that frame. So the A frame is the weapon at rest, B is the actual firing frame, and so on. Notice that the transition from A to B, and indeed B to C, is quite large. But thanks to a little thing called inertia, when the weapon starts "recovering" from recoil (you can feel free to add A_WeaponReady's to change the firing rate), the speed changes come slowly, not instantaneously. So it takes a few frames for the weapon to return to its "at rest" position.
  • Apply this to your melee weapons as well - you're not gently tapping your foes on the shoulder with your baseball bat, you're going to be swinging it as fast and as hard as possible in your enemy's general direction. So take the inverse of the weapon recoil and have the weapon rear back slowly as a wind-up, then "unleash" it (have it hurtle towards the enemy very quickly), have the impact be at about the point when the weapon is centered on screen (assuming a side-to-side swinging animation), then have your recovery time as the weapon slowly returns to its initial position (or if you want to make a "combo" attack, make another similar animation for it swinging back across the screen).
  • Don't underestimate the importance of a good sound! You can't just stick a beefy artillery sound on a pistol and expect it to sound good - it's all about finding a sound that matches the perceived power of the weapon. So a quick-firing pistol should have a nice, equally quick POP, a powerful shotgun should have a fitting BOOM with lots of attack but not necessarily maxed out bass...just experiment with it, and again, analyze other peoples' weapons and see what works and what doesn't.
  • Think about your different variants on shotguns and pistols. If the player is going to have access to all of them at once, think about which ones act exactly the same (i.e. same power, same damage) and consider removing duplicates. Doesn't matter if they look/sound different - if they act the same, what's the point in making the player choose?
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HellCattX
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by HellCattX »

Do none of you guys read? They are restricted to class as there are 4 classes, so no a player cannot pick up all the guns and some cant be picked up at all.
THATS THE DEBUG ROOM, For testing purposes.
Anyhow, I was in the Army, i have a firearms license, i know how guns work, and what there suppost to do.
I hate reloads in Doom, as IMO, reloading in DOOM or DOOM mods, is just silly.
I dont care about other peoples mods, as i have been playing shooting games for almost 20 years, i am 27 and not some punk kid, i also have a full time job, so i am not dedicating my whole free time to make sure a weapon is 100% i have my whole life to do that.
IF you guys dont like it fine, mayhaps ill just stop updating this topic, and ask you guys to lock/delete it, as i am sick of no one reading and assuming how i am making it.

Like i said 3 episodes, 32 levels each, 2 fun map modes, and DM maps. 4 Classes with weapons restrictions. Lost of Monsters.

Also have none of you played fallout 3 or new vegas with all the add ons, they got a TON more guns than I, and alot are just slighted different in stats.
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chronoteeth
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by chronoteeth »

Its less of an issue with the weapons, its more about the "feel" of the weapons. This isn't real life, its video games. They're like that. Here, lets have an example of like a shotgun, ill go like tics

This method makes the gun feel stoic, and boring to use:

FIRING
________
FLASH FRAME = a: 4 tics
KICKBACK FRAME = b: 4 tics
KICKBACK FRAME = c: 4 tics
WAIT FRAME = d: 4 tics

COCKING
________
COCKING FRAME = a: 5 tics
COCKING FRAME = b: 5 tics
COCKING FRAME = c: 5 tics
COCKING FRAME = b: 5 tics
COCKING FRAME = a: 5 tics

^^ that method makes the guns feel robotic, messy, and just not enjoyable to use.
vv this method provides more enjoyable frames that are visually appealing

FIRING
________
FLASH FRAME = a: 1(or 2) tics
KICKBACK FRAME = b: 2 tics
KICKBACK FRAME = c: 2 tics
WAIT FRAME = d: 7 tics

COCKING
________
COCKING FRAME = a: 2 tics
COCKING FRAME = b: 3 tics
COCKING FRAME = c: 7 tics
COCKING FRAME = b: 3 tics
COCKING FRAME = a: 2 tics

A better example would be, take the most common shotgun in AEOD, the spaz. Its wholly unenjoyable to use and just feels very boring and lifeless. Not to mention the lack of sprite movement, it just doesn't "feel" powerful enough. A good example of a powerful shotgun would be in, lets say RSL's the quest. The pump action double barrel is extremely satisfying to use, all the while "feeling" balanced. Hell even in my sense, my older mods had very boring stoic and uninteresting weapons, wheras my newer weapon mods have weapons that feel fun. Its the right combination of sound to sprite to animation that, when all comes together, creates a good weapon.

You can have numbers and code that makes the gun statistically balanced, but if it doesn't feel fun to use, no one's going to use it. As for the weapons, even if you can have a lot of weapons, even if they're bound for classes, having too much of something can be a killer. WW's stranger mod was the perfect balance of amount, feel, and enjoyment when it comes to weapon mods with a lotta guns, and even then there was only 20. It just feels like 2 per key should be the best to go with.
Last edited by chronoteeth on Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wildweasel
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by wildweasel »

HellCattX wrote:Do none of you guys read?
I'm wondering if you've ever asked yourself that question.
They are restricted to class as there are 4 classes, so no a player cannot pick up all the guns and some cant be picked up at all.
Meaning that players can find weapons that they arbitrarily cannot use.
Anyhow, I was in the Army, i have a firearms license, i know how guns work, and what there suppost to do.
I'm not disputing that the weapons don't act correctly - I'm saying that you need to work on the animations a lot, since there are a number of them that simply stand still while shooting, or the animations are incredibly jerky (especially the melee weapons!). Powerful weapons need powerful recoil. Melee weapons need to look like you're actually swinging them, not like you're kind of moving them back and forth and poking things with them.
I hate reloads in Doom, as IMO, reloading in DOOM or DOOM mods, is just silly.
That's not a problem, but without reloading speed and magazine size to differentiate weapons, you're literally left with 7 pistols, 7 shotguns, 7 automatics...all of which have effectively superficial differences, and that the player could find themselves completely unable to use just because of what class they've picked.
I dont care about other peoples mods
There you go, you've basically insulted most of the people that browse these forums.
as i have been playing shooting games for almost 20 years, i am 27 and not some punk kid.
Not to resort to defamation here, but what you've done here is respond to constructive criticism by flipping out. That doesn't really indicate maturity.
IF you guys dont like it fine, mayhaps ill just stop updating this topic, and ask you guys to lock/delete it, as i am sick of no one reading and assuming how i am making it.
I must repeat, what hitmanx and I have done is offer constructive criticism - okay, yes, this is a plain admission that we don't like what we see, but we're offering suggestions that will make your mod better overall, for what really feels like not a lot of work. If you're going to throw a fit, cancel the project that you put so much effort into, all over constructive criticism and useful, friendly advice, then that's your prerogative, but do know that it doesn't make you look good.
Like i said 3 episodes, 32 levels each, 2 fun map modes, and DM maps. 4 Classes with weapons restrictions. Lost of Monsters.
Maybe tone down the ambition a bit. Quality over quantity. 96 maps? Most of the AAA projects in this community cap out at 32 maps, and there are some very high profile projects that have even less (RTC-3057 had, if I remember correctly, only 10 maps).
Also have none of you played fallout 3 or new vegas with all the add ons, they got a TON more guns than I, and alot are just slighted different in stats.
What the Fallout games do that your mod does not: weapons reload and have different magazine sizes, different degradation rates, different upgrades available, different prices, different weights in the player's backpack, all sorts of things that might cause a player to pick one weapon over another. What your mod offers as far as choice really seems to amount to different graphics, different sounds, maybe different damage. With fewer elements to each weapon, the weapons have a hard time really differentiating themselves, which is why I suggested that maybe you pick one or two pistols, one or two shotguns, maybe two automatics, and throw out all the rest. Spend some time making those few that you picked absolutely shine. Make something that not only will other people like, but you'll like later down the line as you look back on what you've made.
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chronoteeth
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by chronoteeth »

As an unrelated bit, the thing with weapon mods with weapons that have over at least 20 weapons tend to end up being little more than resources. Theres some decent edits and handing of some rips in the wad that you have. People would look back at it not with quality eyes but with "so what can I use from here" eyes. WW's diaz is such a high quality mod that people rarely if ever rip from it and put it in their million guns wad or whatever (excluding the whole credits thing), that people just play it for what it is and enjoy it because it just takes the best parts and make it whole (that seems to be a thing too, mods with less weapons are less likely to be ripped from.)

Do you want your project to be looked back as something that people are only going to basically use as a resource (cause like i said there are some decent edits and handings in there), or do you wanna trim the fat, polish the ones not cut, and make it into one awesome bit of weapon mod?
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CorSair
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by CorSair »

What comes for map parts, I agree with wildweasel that quality over quantity is important.

Important thing to know that ambition will eventually fade out, because of overly gigantic measures of set goals of the project. And with that, dies interest to create mod, and it will become dead mod in junkyard of other dead mods.

I am only expressing my concern about the projects future, nothing else.

And chronoteeth, I don't think your post is unrelated any way. :wink:
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HellCattX
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by HellCattX »

Life got the better of me and i forgot about this project, Until i re-found the wad file! then i was like oh yeah! i was working on something big. Between moving to a different province and other life issues this project will come back sometime.

I know its not done or close to done and lots of improvements are needed, however, with my training and schooling right now, i can do very little modding really, and am not sure when ill get a chance to work more in depth on this. I was working on reloads last time i worked on it, so most of them have a reload, others dont. If Life grants me the time to continue to work on this project, there will be an update, but for now until i get those minutes to my self to breathe, relax, and enjoy it will stay at this state unfortunalty. Ill still make mini-projects that take no time, effort or thought to make, but this mod will require more than i can give right now. If someone wants to carry on or anything PM me for extra info.

The DeathMatch level is MAP50 i do belive. The Amazing Maze is not finished, and the gun range is just that, a gun range to test out all the weapons.
The town of Terror episode is 3 maps longs.

So without further adieu here's comes the Pre-Alpha-Beta Release Link!
http://files.drdteam.org/index.php/file ... vf0/up.zip

"I've Given you the Grenades of wisdom, no go play in the park"
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insightguy
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by insightguy »

do you have the credits to all the weapons? because it's one huge collection! how can you even track the real makers?
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HellCattX
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Re: [WIP] Urban Pacification

Post by HellCattX »

there is a credit list included with the zip file.
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