ZDoom

Which it isn't according to Randy. So at least it can't be used in an abusive manner. Still, I would have liked to see it gone for good.

[quote]Mapinfo? So that means that previous maps will still display SUCKS and hide your time from you?[/quote]
I think the part about putting SUCKS above the time happens regardless, but there's a mapinfo option to change the sucks time (but only in 1 hour increments, unless floating point is allowed).

looks like :P

Mapinfo? So that means that previous maps will still display SUCKS and hide your time from you?

So I have to put an empty M_SUCKS lump in my skins folder... :(

A sucktime mapinfo option with one hour granularity. I don't see the need for a cvar, since you'll always see your time anyway.

How? There were a lot of suggestions in this thread.

Fixed.

wow chris. what awesome thing are you cooking up using the SUCKS graphic anyway? I MUST KNOW!

The end-user should ALWAYS have the last word about how his game plays. I'm extremely surprised that a Linux user is questioning this.

[quote="Chris"]Stuff[/quote]

Sorry to be so dismissive of what you said. I have actually read everything and considered it, but I've had quite a few glasses of wine and I'm not sure I could formulate a good response. (And on a school night too tsk tsk :) )

Aaaanyway. I think what it comes down to is a basic principles disagreement...

My view is that a mapper has exercised his will by making his mod in the way he sees fit and that's where it ends for him. He would like it to be played in the way intended but the end user has the right to play it in any way he sees fit - even if that includes methods that will mean he misses out on certain aspects of the mod or it doesn't perform in the way the mapper wanted. In answer to that, the mapper has the ability and right to say - "well you didn't play it my way, so it's your fault you thought it sucked (if you'll excuse the pun). Everybody has options.


Your view point seems to be that a mapper makes a mod and then has the right to ensure, as far as is reasonable, that end users have to play it the way he intended - to the point of forcing play options upon the player. The mapper has the weight of the options on his side because the end user has a greater difficulty over coming any restrictions placed on him by the mapper (and thus may not manage to do so).

A basic diagreement in principle. :yup:

Bottom line, I'd still like a cvar along the lines of what Graf suggested. If it breaks any mods I play, that's my fault. I will not hold the mapper responsible and if such a mapper levels the criticism at me that I didn't play the mod correctly, I'll take that on the chin.

Please stop it, Chris! This discussion is going nowhere.

But your suggestion of a compatibility flag is ok. After all it's just a CVAR that can be set in a special menu. I think that is the way it should be done.


@WildWeasel: Yes, you can. The par time is output with the same code as the regular time.

Now here's an interesting thought - is it possible to set a map's Par time so high that it "sucks"?

[quote="Enjay"]How can an option I envoke on my computer be forcing something down a modder's throat?[/quote]
Because, as I said, the modder, with such a CVAR option available to the player, can no longer gaurantee that the graphic will be displayed (and as I said, it doesn't have to be "SUCKS!".. the modder can change it to something more meaningful, especially if the "sucktime" is variable). If you want to go out of your way to load an external mapinfo to purposefully break it, that's your fault.. but the option will still be there for you.

[quote]However, a modder forcing an option on me is forcing something down mine - on my computer, in my home.[/quote]
a) You can still disable it, b) the modder can still "force" things on you (since you are, after all, playing [i]their[/i] wad)

[quote]Nothing is being forced down the modder's throat. They make their mod as they see fit. They include a sucktime in their mapinfo and maybe a modified sucks graphic. If they see a need, they include a text file that says "do not set the suck cvar to 0 if you want to get the full benefit of this mod".[/quote]
That's unnecessary. How many people actually read the textfiles nowadays, anyway?

[quote]If, however, a modder decides it would be supar-leet to include a 1 second sucktime so that I never see the time on the summary screen and there is no simple way I can over ride this, it is being forced on me.[/quote]
You can load a mapinfo after said mod. But really, if a modder is going to be "supar-leet" and put in a 1 second sucktimes, do you really think the rest of the wad will be up to par?

[quote]Firstly, why should I have to make a new file when typing a console command could do it for me[/quote]
Because then it becomes too variable for the modder to reasonably assume it'll be as expected.

[quote]secondly why should I have to have another file loaded just to overcome a variable?[/quote]
Because that's not how the modder intended the mod to be?

[quote]let me do it elegantly instead of using a hack and loading an extra file to confuse things.[/quote]
*sighs* What about a compatibility flag, then? Those are known to break newer wads if they're on, so you pretty much assume such a risk, anyway.

[quote="Graf Zahl"]For some stuff like jumping or falling damage it is a necessary evil. If a mod is made for it it must have some means to switch it on.[/quote]

For falling damage, yes, I agree that it would be foolish to switch that one off. It is very likely that if the mapper has used it, it is quite important for the gameplay in the map. It would also be difficult to tell if you should have taken damage, but didn't, if you over rode the setting. Or it is quite possible that you would end up living at the bottom of a long fall when you should have died, and so be somewhere you shouldn't etc (although, if death from a fall was essential, there would be better ways to do it than falling damage). So, I certainly wouldn't have that one switched off by default. The choice to ruin the gameplay for myself would be nice though. :)

Jumping, however, is different. If the mapper does not intend jumping to be used then they can say as much in the text file. It will be obvious to the player where they need to jump to reach something and therefore that it was not intended by the map author for you to do it that way. If the player then opts to jump, they know they are cheating and potentially breaking the game. If the map is not meant for jumping, the player can simply restrain themself and not press the jump button.

However, I have played many wads where I wanted to do a little "skip" up to avoid going round the long way for the nth time because I fell off a crate (or something) yet again. In that case it's only mini-cheating (he's just like a cheat, only smaller - I think I'll call him mini-cheat :twisted: ). ie I want to get back to somewhere I have already been (or similar), or maybe just want to hop over a lava pit because I'm only on 3% health etc. Then, and only then, I have discovered the mapper has disabled jumping. Now I am probably going to end up "big-cheating" by noclipping or god moding. Or maybe I will continue to play honestly and go round the long way again or die in the lava. It's all down to how I enjoy playing a level. I'd like to do a little hop and kind of still go with the flow and feel of the level or I will have to activate a cheat code or waste time. If I were allowed that little hop, then I'd be enjoying my play session more than when I am barred from doing it. The thing with jumping is - you don't have to do it. Many maps (usually for other ports) are not made with jumpiing in mind and we don't have to have jumping disabled to play them - we just don't press jump. So I disagree that enforcing nojumping via mapinfo is a necessary evil and I think that having the option to jump in any level can be useful.

And for the anti cheating zealots who say cheating is like being pregnant - i.e. you either are or you are not - I say :P :P :P I'll have my different scales of cheating and feel good about it and nothing you say will change that. ;)