GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

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Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by drfrag » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:47 am

No need to monetize anything, a guy has already given 20€ through GoFundMe (thanks!). I've found an offer for 40€, i wonder if it's real (Lowi).
Is there any problem with LiberaPay? I could also send my PayPal acount directly in a PM. I tried to create a Patreon but the page said i chose a premium account and i did not.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by wildweasel » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:14 pm

Money doesn't just get given away per download as is. Usually such schemes involve software bundling (a terrible, horrible evil that has driven me away from many a free program) or ad support (screw that, too).

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Redneckerz » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:48 pm

drfrag wrote:But this is a GLES to Vulkan wrapper not the other way around. You need a card natively supporting Vulkan and GZDoom already has a Vulkan renderer, this is to run GLES applications over Vulkan. I'm not sure if the OP knows what this is, think of a wrapper as some kind of emulator.
Yeah, i know. Its nigh on useless for the time being. I just got wrapped around the potential of it all.
drfrag wrote: About plans: i want to continue LZDoom development for now and there are other WIP things i plan to do with ZDoom, that is if i manage to get some support to pay a new internet connection. But hey a project with several thousand downloads should not have any problem to get at least 50€ for an internet connection (i haven't checked offers yet) even when it's mainly targeted to poor guys like me. I'm mostly offline now but for now development continues at a slower pace and like i said in the thread i'll most likely do another release very soon.
Crazy and wild idea: Wouldn't an system exist that monetizes your downloads in a similar fashion to the Google Rewards program? Those who download, the monetization program/initative donates a few pennies (It has to be small, obviously). Given the download amount, that could earn yourself a penny.

Crazy and wild, mind you, because i have yet to find a system that actually does that in the way ive described.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by drfrag » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:02 am

The term productive is relative, i already did some things for the software renderer and now that polybackend is active again...
But i plan to continue with LZDoom for now too, or whatever helps me to pay an internet connection.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Rachael » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:37 am

We actually need some honest testing of that backend over said hardware.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Graf Zahl » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:00 am

drfrag wrote:i considered a miniGL (2.1) backend only for software but the future of legacy support is in the SoftPoly II (tm) renderer or rasterizer or whatever.
LZDoom doesn't only target GL 2.1 but also 3.3 and higher hardware with broken drivers, until recently when Blzut3 got me some recent hardware i could not run modern GZDoom on my 3.3 ATI/AMD card (it crashed in a few seconds).
Here's the really interesting question then: We all know that all OpenGL 2.x hardware still in existence is creepingly slow and will probably be better served by the new polybackend rasterizer than by native GL 2 support. Do you plan to continue LZDoom or focus on other things that may be more prodiuctive with greater usefulness then?

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by drfrag » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:37 am

But this is a GLES to Vulkan wrapper not the other way around. You need a card natively supporting Vulkan and GZDoom already has a Vulkan renderer, this is to run GLES applications over Vulkan. I'm not sure if the OP knows what this is, think of a wrapper as some kind of emulator.
I know there are good D3D to Vulkan and OpenGL wrappers and i think OpenGL to Vulkan too, i don't think there are any Vulkan to OpenGL for old cards like the old crappy OpenGL to D3D wrappers and i doubt that would work.
On LZDoom obviously i can't rewrite the renderer and a would not do it, i considered a miniGL (2.1) backend only for software but the future of legacy support is in the SoftPoly II (tm) renderer or rasterizer or whatever.
LZDoom doesn't only target GL 2.1 but also 3.3 and higher hardware with broken drivers, until recently when Blzut3 got me some recent hardware i could not run modern GZDoom on my 3.3 ATI/AMD card (it crashed in a few seconds).
About plans: i want to continue LZDoom development for now and there are other WIP things i plan to do with ZDoom, that is if i manage to get some support to pay a new internet connection. But hey a project with several thousand downloads should not have any problem to get at least 50€ for an internet connection (i haven't checked offers yet) even when it's mainly targeted to poor guys like me. I'm mostly offline now but for now development continues at a slower pace and like i said in the thread i'll most likely do another release very soon.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Redneckerz » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:10 pm

Rachael wrote:I can understand wanting to be helpful - but you're trying to solve a problem that's already been solved. ;)

Also, if the Pi4 does indeed support Vulkan, than nothing needs to really be done. GZDoom will just compile on it natively.
Yes, chalking it off on missing a very obvious point. Still, in the worst case - There is a topic now, if it ever gets useful, atleast its here.

Ill do better next time, promised :P
Graf Zahl wrote:Let's phrase it this way: If we could get a Vulkan wrapper that covers all the warts and bumps of a low level API we might be interested, but I don't have much hope here.
That was indeed the original gist, except that this has warts and bumps. And its not tailor made :) If this gets an update or progression to the point you just mentioned, ill certainly will give you a call.

Thanks to the both of you and dpjudas for all the responses.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Graf Zahl » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:00 pm

Let's phrase it this way: If we could get a Vulkan wrapper that covers all the warts and bumps of a low level API we might be interested, but I don't have much hope here.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Rachael » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:58 pm

I can understand wanting to be helpful - but you're trying to solve a problem that's already been solved. ;)

Also, if the Pi4 does indeed support Vulkan, than nothing needs to really be done. GZDoom will just compile on it natively.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Redneckerz » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:52 pm

Graf Zahl wrote: We are fully aware that this isn't a Vulkan renderer. But the point still stands. We already support Vulkan natively.
That's clarified then. I was under the assumption that you considered this a renderer too as per your earlier post.
Graf Zahl wrote: Why should we support a wrapper targeting an outdated API? It won't have any benefit for GZDoom at all. GZDoom requires OpenGL 3.3 and GLES2 simply doesn't cut it, no matter whether this targets native GLES hardware or Vukan or whatever.

I also don't get what these wrapper developers want. If they want to support modern hardware, an old API is the worst way to go. Most potential customers who aren't involved in mobile will take a hike.
To answer the question:
That was not perse the intent of this thread. It was more an, like i said: ''Hey, perhaps this is useful'' instead of ''Hey Graf, you need to support this, regardless of what its contents are.''.

As per the OP, GLOVE is used to make OpenGLES/Vulkan support possible on their RISC-V GPU, and its also used for easifying porting. As mentioned, Currently they support OpenGLES2 and EGL 1.4, but they are planning to support OpenGLES 3 and OpenGL. Considering the relative infancy of this project and its relatively quick progression, its partially why i linked this. Not because it has uses for GZDoom now, but like i said, more as an ''Hey, perhaps this is useful'' bit, with the idea that more modern API support is on the rise.

Perhaps the last bit should have been clarified further.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Graf Zahl » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:44 pm

Redneckerz wrote: I am not sure why you side with Graf on the notion that this is a Vulkan renderer as Graf thinks it is, because it isn't.
Except for the recent Pi4, you are right. It is Vulkan capable, however:
We are fully aware that this isn't a Vulkan renderer. But the point still stands. We already support Vulkan natively. Why should we support a wrapper targeting an outdated API? It won't have any benefit for GZDoom at all. GZDoom requires OpenGL 3.3 and GLES2 simply doesn't cut it, no matter whether this targets native GLES hardware or Vukan or whatever.

I also don't get what these wrapper developers want. If they want to support modern hardware, an old API is the worst way to go. Most potential customers who aren't involved in mobile will take a hike.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Redneckerz » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:22 pm

Rachael wrote:Talk about all the right enthusiasm in all the wrong places.

I'm going to have to side with dpJudas and Graf on this one. We never have, and never will support OpenGL ES 2.0. The only person who would even be remotely interested in something like this is beloko, and that's only if he never upgrades his GZDoom base for his android port.

I see absolutely no point whatsoever in supporting this feature.
Hmm. Then in all my enthusiasm (in all the wrong places) i didn't connect very obvious dots. Apologies. Though, there is OpenGLES support on desktop cards, but as is then it its defunct.
Rachael wrote: ^ And this, too ^

Furthermore, as of my last check, the Raspberry Pi does not yet support Vulkan. Maybe when the Pi5 comes out, but I wouldn't hold my breath. So this project has absolutely no interest there, either.
I am not sure why you side with Graf on the notion that this is a Vulkan renderer as Graf thinks it is, because it isn't.
Except for the recent Pi4, you are right. It is Vulkan capable, however:

https://preview.redd.it/a7btwoqr0u631.j ... 237733f585

Talking about being a informational dud :oops: Again, apologies. Perhaps when this gains Open GL3 of GLES 3 support, it is worth mentioning it again.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Rachael » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:54 pm

Talk about all the right enthusiasm in all the wrong places.

I'm going to have to side with dpJudas and Graf on this one. We never have, and never will support OpenGL ES 2.0. The only person who would even be remotely interested in something like this is beloko, and that's only if he never upgrades his GZDoom base for his android port.

I see absolutely no point whatsoever in supporting this feature.
Graf Zahl wrote: LZDoom has its niche and I doubt that drfrag is interested in redoing the entire renderer. Ultimately it boils down to "why bother?" We already have a working Vulkan renderer and it delivers on what it was primarily made for: Improve performance on non-NVidia hardware by magnitudes.
^ And this, too ^

Furthermore, as of my last check, the Raspberry Pi does not yet support Vulkan. Maybe when the Pi5 comes out, but I wouldn't hold my breath. So this project has absolutely no interest there, either.

Re: GLOVE: GL Over Vulkan

by Redneckerz » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:00 pm

Graf Zahl wrote: QZDoom is not a product, it's a testbed fork of GZDoom.
LZDoom has its niche and I doubt that drfrag is interested in redoing the entire renderer. Ultimately it boils down to "why bother?"We already have a working Vulkan renderer and it delivers on what it was primarily made for: Improve performance on non-NVidia hardware by magnitudes.
  • Regarding QZ: This is stated in the OP and its partially why i included Rachael into this. Because it isn't a unique edge case for GZDoom and i considered GZ the least likely fit for this because of the OpenGLES 2 support, but OpenGLES 3 seems to be in the pipeline, so i figured it wouldn't do much hurt to make you aware of this port for the time being.
  • Regarding the bolded: That isn't what this does. It is a translation layer for GLES to Vulkan, it isn't a renderer as is. If the OP isn't clear enough to distinguish this, please let me know.

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