Save Us (WIP)

[piexil]

I feel like picking this post apart to make an example. No warnings are issued (yet) but this post represents a lot of things you aren't supposed to do when it comes to fielding criticism.

You know, you sire are an asshole (excuse my language) for one, you're not supposed to swear on the forum.

Not only does receiving bad feedback not entitle you to insult other users, swearing is not specifically forbidden on this forum (hell, we _do_ have a rudimentary swear-filter option on here, even if it only really affects variants on the F-bomb, and even that can be turned off).

I lost some of my mapping skills recently, but that gives you know right to be a complete dick about it.

And likewise, other users being dicks does not give one the right to be a dick in return. Give others what you wish in return, do unto others as you wish others to do unto you, and all that.

you could of been a bit nicer about it.

Say that into a mirror, pal. =P

And so as to be equal opportunity, I'm also going to pick apart Salad Viking's post as an example of how not to give constructive criticism.

Played MAP02. I see no reason not to be blunt about it: this is shit.

Way to keep his spirits up.

But I'm going to chalk this up to lack of experience.

I'd imagine Piexil wouldn't have immediately read this part, given how close it was to the "this is shit" remark.

The list of problems is good, it details things that are objectively wrong with the project, with not a lot that purely boils down to personal preference (except for the stuff about using default textures, which I highly disagree with; they might be overused, but you generally want to learn how to work with the defaults before you go seeking out and going overboard with custom textures). But it's the bit after it that gets me:

My suggestion? Don't bother mapping. Not yet anyways.

Bad suggestion, I think - a craftsman in training spends equal time honing his own skills and analyzing the skills of others. As his skills improve, he spends more time honing and less time analyzing, as there's less need for analysis with more skills - that's when the imagination takes over.

Salad did spend a fair portion of his post offering helpful advice and criticism, but it was quite badly drowned out by negative stuff that had no business being in the post.

Yeah, you're right. I was being hypocritical and quite rude and mean myself. I am sorry. I did like the lost of advice but the rest of his post was just mean. I am sorry for my post. I am currently working on fixing up this map. Also about the cramped corridors, there is only about 1 or 2 of them.

[Squishybrick]

I gave up on mapping because of people like Tormentor667.

Wait... You gave up on mapping because there are people who make better maps? This doesn't make any sense to me.

*takes a deep breath and counts to 10*

I'll simply say, the people who say such things are why people like me exist, because the ones who DON'T give up have to put up with these hoity-toity monocle-and-tophat wearing pompous doom critics, and thus completely destroy their self-confidence, turning them into a strange hybrid-trolls who explode
like a grenade whenever he sees a comment such as this... Or WORSE... They are assimilated....
You can choose to be offended, you can choose to laugh, or you can choose to just read it and
consider my point of view without immediately and instinctively retorting with a smug remark...

I played MAP02.. And yes, it was messy (To say the least), but it has detail and structure.. Nothing a 2nd pass can't fix.

Frankly, gameplay-wize it was a level I had to play twice to beat, and that in itself is a good attribute.. Especially since it's not too difficult, and it only takes a little bit
of looking around to figure it all out.. Just like how a doom level should be.

Yes it was cramped but who gives a hoot, I'm not the one having to walk through sludge in the dark hearing nazis around the corner, doomguy is, so I have no reason to complain... The pain elementals were annoying but nothing a little fisty-work couldn't take care of..

One problem though, with me at least.. You made the secret necessary to beat the level, that's a no-no.. It's not a secret if you NEED it, then it's just part of the mission, and is counted as an objective.. You need those 2 bfg shots to take on the archys when your on your way to the exit, which on the first run, I didn't know and
got blasted to the cieling..

Lastly...

Mapping is a work of art

No it's not, it's a hobby you do for fun to kill time, stop treating doom like it's some super over-inflated fancy-pants graphics FPS...

It's DOOM... And it will always be doom... And so will it's maps, no matter how much you dress them up with your texture packs and custom sprites...

_____________________________

To lighten the mood, you can imagine that's what I see most of you as... A scylon (Or however you spell those robot guys from star trek) wearing a top hat and a monocle with a silver pocket watch and a fancy suit, with a cane, whom either shoot down mods with your insanely high standards or, assimilate them...

Maybe someone can post a picture of a scylon with a top hat and a monocle with the caption "U MAD SQUISHY?"... That would be awesome... XD

[InsanityBringer]

Ok... seriously...

Is there ANYTHING wrong with creating a map with any quality in it? Is there ANYTHING wrong to help people create a better map? No, not at all. And yet, you're sitting here insisting that maps can be boring and simplistic because "it's doom". Correct me if I am wrong, but Doom was not loaded with boxy, empty levels with clashing textures and all of that (except for maybe a few levels). Even if one creates something that isn't a "work of art", it's still better to at least do something that looks decent to both the mapper and the end user. It gives people more motivation, if you think about it really -- if people start liking their maps, then they get more motivation to make more maps. All in all, listening to what people say is never a bad thing, even if the response is negative -- but constructive at the same time.

[Squishybrick]

Even if one creates something that isn't a "work of art", it's still better to at least do something that looks decent to both the mapper and the end user.

Not if he's a beginner or a ex-modder mercinary... And this guy's a beginner... Now stop expecting a work of art from a beginner..

Critiquing only helps out regular modders.. You have to use a different softer form of it for beginners.. Please remember that or else you'll have another ME
to deal with in the future..

[Vertigo]

I'm not sure how many of these bugs/problems have been mentioned so I'll mention everything I found in my quick playthrough.

1. The starting room needs more detail. In fact most rooms need more detail. Try making rooms that aren't just squares etc
2. The textures don't show up here, I'm loading all 3 texture wads.
3. You should change the ceiling texture, there's no reason for it to be a teleporter.
4.This little pedestal is too small for the baron, he just walks back and forward lots and rarely shoots at you.
5. The sides of this door need to be set to "lower unpegged" so that the textures don't move when the door opens.
6.Misaligned teleport texture, move it over so it looks right.
7. This is too tall, you can see the texture loop when you shouldn't
8. Super bland room, just a big box. Mix it up, use height and light variation and non-90 degree corners
9. In the final room with the cacos I had no ammo to kill them, maybe I missed a box of shells or something but I had to run past and just exit.
10.I could not figure out what to do but crouch under the hanging bodies, are you supposed to crouch or what?
11. This slime doesn't hurt you. You also probably shouldn't use the falling slime texture for the floor.
12. Pretty much have to punch these pain elementals to death, there's no ammo to kill them.
13. I'm also getting missing sprites in this map
14. More missing sprites and another bland room.
15. There seems to be no way to kill the archviles, no weapons/ammo etc
16.Again this should be lower unpegged
17.Should be lower unpegged - also the imp on the right is stuck and can't attack. The slime also doesn't hurt you.
18.Bad light placement. It obstructs the hallway and there's no light variation around it. You should also change the textures, there's way too much STARTAN and it looks like you're using the default DB2 textures.

You should definitely keep mapping, it's just so much fun. I do recommend you not release anything for a while. The thing to do is to get comfortable with DB2 so you can make interesting things without it being a huge effort so you can focus on the gameplay etc. I too am at that point where my stuff isn't worth releasing but you gotta just keep mapping. If you keep trying with each map you make you'll get exponentially better (in my experience). I assume you've played a whole lot of Doom? You need to have an extremely well tuned game sense to make good maps.

edit: This was all from a quick run through at 4am, I apologize if I've screwed up (i.e there is enough ammo etc).

[InsanityBringer]

Critiquing only helps out regular modders..

I'd say it helps ANYONE capable of reading and comprehending what's been pushed out to them. (and, more importantly, whether they choose to acknowledge the critic). Ok, so maybe things could have been softer here, but completely legit mistakes and tips have been posted here, and despite the bad initial response from the author, it's likely at after their last post that they understand the true nature of what's being pushed to them, hopefully.

Also, I never implied that I expected a beginner mapper to push out "works of art". I expected them to push out their best effort which can then be tweaked with the advice given from others. The definition of "work of art" can vary, even. Many might call KDiZD a "work of art", but I honestly think it looks more like a bordered, pit-laden, floor-disaster mess more than an actual work of art, with some exceptions, of course.

[Squishybrick]

but I honestly think it looks more like a bordered, pit-laden, floor-disaster mess more than an actual work of art, with some exceptions, of course.

Do me a favor and just stay away from beginner mod threads, okay?.. You don't seem to get the whole "You get more bees with honey" aspect of criticism...
And it's starting to annoy me how you've completely ignored what I've said twice in a row now and compensated with making general remarks about how criticism is
important, which I never said it wasn't...

[Nightfall]

Mapping is a work of art

No it's not, it's a hobby you do for fun to kill time

Mapping is work of art you do for fun.

[Vertigo]

Mapping is a work of art

No it's not, it's a hobby you do for fun to kill time

Mapping is work of art you do for fun.

Art is entirely subjective which means that everything can be art, it's all about how you perceive it. Would you consider this to be art? I think even the crudest MS paint dick is legitimate art.

[InsanityBringer]

Hey, I sketch out pictures for fun to kill time, heh. Art doesn't *need* to be boring

(though sometimes it is )

Also as a rather early mapper myself I have no intention on staying away from the threads of beginning mappers, especially since I do sometimes have quite legit advice for people.

[Squishybrick]

Art is entirely subjective which means that everything can be art

Agreed...

The reason I'm so against harsh criticism is your not supposed to slam the mistakes a beginner makes in his face.. If they don't have the brains to look at doom and figure it out on their own with a LITTLE guidance, then their heart really isn't in it and they don't deserve to be shot down for something they weren't 100% for from the first place... And if they were, that's all the MORE reason to be gentle on them..

Criticism like the stuff I see in this thread is what belongs to the PROS.. The people who pride themselves on making top-notch high-quality maps.. THOSE are the people you need to be pointing out mistakes for like they were hideous pimples....

[NeuralStunner]

but I honestly think it looks more like a bordered, pit-laden, floor-disaster mess more than an actual work of art, with some exceptions, of course.

Do me a favor and just stay away from beginner mod threads, okay?.. You don't seem to get the whole "You get more bees with honey" aspect of criticism...

Nice job butchering the quote tags while you were busy taking the remark out of context. I don't care how persecuted you think you are, that's unacceptable.

[Shadelight]

Criticism like the stuff I see in this thread is what belongs to the PROS..

Anything could use criticism, like your attitude in this thread.

[Ryan Cordell]

Criticism like the stuff I see in this thread is what belongs to the PROS.. The people who pride themselves on making top-notch high-quality maps.. THOSE are the people you need to be pointing out mistakes for like they were hideous pimples....

Oh shut the hell up. Everyone, regardless of their skill, can and will be criticized for their work. It is up to the critic him/herself to be as gentile or as loud as he wants with his message.

It is also up to others to chastise the critic if he was too rude/etc with his message as well.

[Squishybrick]

Fine, fine... I get the point... If you really find it completely and absolutely necessary to treat EVERY mod the same criticism-wize and assume the modder will take it without flinching every time, I won't complain anymore...

Seems like with every remark I make my main point gets slightly degraded each time.. .. That must be the magic curse of the forums I've been hearing about...

*shuts up*