ZDoom

Enjay wrote:OK, this is from memory. To get the second book, you'll need to use the fire key on the other door that needs it, and don't forget to have a smashing time after you are in.

BTW, I don't think you need both books to complete the game, but what you find may help you.

OK, thanks. Actually the fire key is one other thing I didn't find in that go-round before I ran out of time. Maybe next time with the updated version...

Anyway when playing plain Hexen in ZDoom, I get "message not found" when switching between clusters (cause usually a msg is displayed).

Downloading the update now.

BTW, I should have mentioned that even though I spent a lot of time not being able to progress in it, I thought the ruined town level looked fantastic. The general look was very evocative of "Myth Drannor" as it was in "Eye of the Beholder III" (shame EOB3 wasn't the climax to the series it should have been - but the town was well done IMO, within a very limited engine by modern standards.). I also really like the slightly "off-beat" choice of music for that level. I'm not sure why, but I thought it really added something. I think it is my favourite level in the set.

Also, "Daggerfall" worth DLing the demo? (16 MB is heavy for my modem.) Also, do you know if there are editing tools that can pull stuff out of the demo? From a quick web search, there seem to be lots of interesting sprites in the game that haven't made it to Doom mods (until now). I guess it is just a little outside the typical places people would look for FPS resources. I played Elder Scrolls Arena - is this some sort of follow up?

yeah I found the second book and I have no idea where I got it, need to pay attention more or something

Enjay wrote:Also, "Daggerfall" worth DLing the demo?

There are two demos, the dungeon and island. The dungeon one is rather boring. The island (which includes dozens of dungeons) demo is great fun if you like free-form CRPGs. I imagine the editors work with the demo, I don't think they changed formats. If you're looking for plot depth or eye candy don't bother though. DF centered on character development and scale.

As far as resources go, untapped is an understatement. Consider Hexen has 20 megs, DF has 40+ of nothing but textures & sprites (retail version).

LilWhiteMouse wrote:As far as resources go, untapped is an understatement. Consider Hexen has 20 megs, DF has 40+ of nothing but textures & sprites (retail version).

Hmmm, might be worth tracking down and buying the full game just for the resources some time. As for plot depth and eye candy, I just finished playing Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder 1 and 2 again a couple of months ago. Whilst both have some story, they are hardly cutting edge (even less so than vanilla doom), so I should be able to cope with that in DF too.

Anyway, just completed the revised version of Wolfen. Took me 1 hour 15 minutes. It seemed a lot more logical this time, but then I knew what to expect. What's more, I think I did it honestly, unless I accidentally took a short cut. See below.

Anyway, here's some stuff I spotted, and other comments.

The reduced glitter bridge making it harder to get to the exit for the oes bog for the first time annoyed me for 2 reasons. 1 I don't like jumping puzzles and 2 I thought it was going to be like that all the time and so be a real PIA every time I wanted to revisit the level. Fortunately 2 was taken care of by you, so I can live with 1.

There is also a bit of ceiling moss beside the exit to the oes bog that was actually sitting on the ground.

In the oes bog itself, are you supposed to be able to squeeze past the end pillar with the health vials on them (the ones that eventually lower and give you access to the mana beam switch)? If so, then if feels a little too tight IMO - kind of like you are maybe cheating. If not, then I have not worked out the correct way to get to the area of the map beyond and thereby get the steel key.

The Heretic wizard attacks have a messed up sprite ( FX11D0 )

I really like the frozen area with all the frozen enemies standing around - very creepy. I know that was there before, but I hadn't mentioned it.

Love the thief objective complete sound being used, because it is very fitting, I think it is a great sound and it reminds me of Thief, which I think is a great game. However, it is possible to get the sound and message saying "map complete" when there are still essential items on the map (specifically keys to allow you to progress to essential areas in other maps). Suggest either changing the message to reflect that only the mana beam has been disabled, or delay the "map complete" message until all essential tasks are done. I prefer the second option, even if it s a little harder to implement. What I ended up doing was getting the message, then confidently leaving the map thinking there was nothing left to do, but later realising there was an area on another map I couldn’t get to. By that stage, however, I had no real idea which map to re-visit to get the required key.

Whilst on keys, I think the castle key is a little tough to find. It is in an area that is almost like finding a secret, and I *think* from checking the map in the editor, it may not even always be present on the level (?). This seems a wrong for an item that is essential for completing the game. Suggest bigger clues, or simply put it somewhere more obvious. What is it that makes it spawn anyway?

The lines on the clock gearbox are blocking. Whilst this may be a fix to avoid people getting up that way, it also prevents you dropping off the roof that way. When you are dropping down from the top, you cannot see any reason to be blocked at that particular point, so it feels a little clumsy.

In the fire tower level, once you have fought the wyvern and descended the stairs, if you stand on the island and look back to the main island, at the bottom of the slopes on the main island, you can see a "HOM-y" kind of effect at the bottom of the "mountains". I think it is caused by the sloping mountains dropping down too low or something. Not a major glitch though.

Getting the swamp key can get screwed if you do things in the wrong order. If you are running around and not paying enough attention (as I was) it is possible to miss the switch at the top of the well beside the swamp key (the one that lowers the key). So I ended up going to the bottom of the level, flicking the switch down there that gives access to the lowered key, but because the sector with the key on it had not lowered, the sector to give me access did not lower either. "Doh! I know where there is a switch - not a problem - go back upstairs and lower the key" I thought. I did that, but when I went back below again, the lower switch must be a use once because it was in the "used" position and would not switch - so I could not get access to the key. Fortunately I had a savegame before flicking the lowered switch. Suggest not allowing access to the lower area, or at least the part of the lower area with the switch, until the upper switch has been used.

Oh yeah, and I still got the enDSeQ thing.

heh, I don't get the enDSeQ thing with this version

couple more notes: in the swamp map it's possible to get onto that platform with the two 3d bridges (as the fighter anyway) if you hop onto that log near it (takes a couple trys tho). Doesn't effect anything, but then you don't have to go underwater (which I actually prefer, I kept dying under there). also in the same area those bars that block off the cave that can only be accessed after raisingt he steps, you can hit that switch from the opposite side of the bars. again it doesn't effect anything, but it allows you to not bother with the steps.

enjay: isn't the castle key just behind a corpse behind a house? I didn't have any trouble finding it on my first run through, unless it's placed differently for each class (I play as the fighter)...

Cyb wrote:couple more notes: in the swamp map it's possible to get onto that platform with the two 3d bridges (as the fighter anyway) if you hop onto that log near it (takes a couple trys tho).

Yes, not sure if that's quite how I did it (probably), but I did get on to that platform without raising the steps first time I played.

enjay: isn't the castle key just behind a corpse behind a house? I didn't have any trouble finding it on my first run through, unless it's placed differently for each class (I play as the fighter)...

Well as the Cleric, it is in a small area just to the side of one of the houses (just through the broken wall where you start the level). The area looks as if it is supposed to be a coal shed, or an outhouse of some sort, attached to the main building, but without a roof.

To get in, you have to break the pots round the back of the outhouse, jump onto a wooden post, and then jump into the outhouse - or climb the broken edge of the wall and drop in from above.

On trying just now, warping to the level there was no key in the outhouse, so I'm guessing it is possible to go into the outhouse and find no key when playing properly. If that is the case, what reason would you have to re-visit the outhouse later on - Would you do it just on the suspicion a key may have turned up?

Of course, given that you seem to have found it in a different place and this time I didn't find it where I found it last time, maybe LilWhiteMouse has randomised where the key appears.

Edit: Aha!

wow, then it's just pure coincidence that both times I played through it was spawned in the exact same spot both times. crazy

I like the idea in this case. The key is somewhere in the ruined town, but you have to find it. I think there should be some kind of hint to this effect, though, as there's no reason to be searching the ruined town if you don't know there's a key (or other valuable item) stashed somewhere in there.

You weren't supposed to get past the pillars in the Oes bog. They lower when you defeat the two Plague Wyrms.

The map objective should only play when you have released the anchor and picked up any required items/keys.

The swamp key should be available in either order you hit the switches. One switch lowers the water and sets a flag. The other waits for the flag to be set and lowers the hatch.

LilWhiteMouse wrote:You weren't supposed to get past the pillars in the Oes bog. They lower when you defeat the two Plague Wyrms.

OK, so the swamp key gets me into the area with the two plague worms. I have to get the cave key to get into the area where the swamp key is. To get that, I need the castle key and I need to get the steel key to get to the level with the castle and cave keys are. The steel key is in front of the pillars, but I have only ever found it available after I have been behind the pillars, so obviously I haven't worked out the correct way to get the steel key. I guess that means I got the clock gear too early as well.

OH, btw, I thought the door that opens with the use of the cave key looked too bright and shiny to be activated by that key, and the keyhole for the castle key doesn't look "grand" enough to match the key. Not a big deal, but I thought the cave key door looked as if it should have been activated by, maybe, the steel key and the castle lock the cave key. The only reason I mention it was every time I looked at the door I was kind of like "which key do I need here again" and had to check the door for an answer. Like I said, not really a big deal - just me.

The map objective should only play when you have released the anchor and picked up any required items/keys.

OK, well that wasn't what happened. Mind you, it is now obvious I did things in the wrong order, so that could have screwed things I suppose.

The swamp key should be available in either order you hit the switches. One switch lowers the water and sets a flag. The other waits for the flag to be set and lowers the hatch.

OK, well for some reason that didn't happen. I hit the lower switch, went upstairs, hit the upper switch, came down and the hatch was still closed, tried to hit the lower switch again, but it was already activated and couldn't be used again. No key available. Me doing things in the wrong order again?

Edit: OK just tried warping to the map. Tried the switches in both orders and they worked this time, regardless of switch order.

Enjay wrote:The steel key is in front of the pillars, but I have only ever found it available after I have been behind the pillars, so obviously I haven't worked out the correct way to get the steel key. I guess that means I got the clock gear too early as well.

The steel key is aquired by killing the two black stalkers (hence their different color). The clock gear and anchor are the two deciding factors for the map complete chime, as you weren't supposed to be able to get them before getting the other keys. That's why the chime failed. Where did you sneak by? The left side (as you approach it)?

LilWhiteMouse wrote:The steel key is aquired by killing the two black stalkers (hence their different color).

Yes, I just went back in and tried and noticed that's what happened. I was going to edit my post above to say as much.

The clock gear and anchor are the two deciding factors for the map complete chime, as you weren't supposed to be able to get them before getting the other keys. That's why the chime failed.

Makes sense.

Where did you sneak by? The left side (as you approach it)?

Yes, the left side. Easy enough to do to make it seem like it was meant to be. Difficult enough to feel like maybe it wasn't.

OK, played through again, and this time I did it in the right order. It seems increasingly logical to me, but I know that I am loosing sight of how difficult/confusing things are because I now know where everything is supposed to be, and which order to do them in. This was just a very quick, no attempt to kill everything run through on the easiest setting. I did it in just over 30 minutes - compare that with about 3 hours for my first attempt.

A few additional comments. Nothing major new discovered this time.

I'd suggest actually putting up a message when you kill the black stalkers. Those things are hard to keep track of because they keep disappearing off the map, and you have a whole load of green ones popping up all the time too. Something like "key guardian killed" or something?

I noticed the location of the traps by the flame mask puzzle were in a different place this time - nice touch. I fell into the pit because I thought I knew the correct route, but it looked like there may not have been spikes in the pit like there were when I played on medium. Couldn't really tell though, I hit fire and restarted too quickly.

Didn't get the endseq problem this time. I wonder if it is something to do with me playing in the wrong order? Anyway, I noticed that the final battle (after the change) I still had flechettes in my inventory and was able to get the bad guys to walk into the poison clouds. They both died as a result, and I never had to get "up close and personal" with them. They never even got a chance for their change either. I went back and did it again without the flechettes, and let them morph and the endseq thing didn't rear its head that time either.

One odd thing, the second time I tried the final battle, I did so with god mode on (which may or may not be relevant) half way through, a message came up in the middle of the screen saying "500 dead". Is that supposed to happen?