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Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:51 pm
by Pixel Eater
Something I haven't seen being discussed is whether or not some of the nitty-grittier options even need menu space. A lot of the set-and-forget preferences that only a power user would notice could remain console only.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:53 pm
by xenoxols
Trusty McLegit wrote:Another +1 to Xaser's proposal. I also think texture filtering should be on None (Trilinear) by default if that's still up for discussion

Yeah, filtering in Doom may have seemed cool at one point but now it just looks blurry. Adding to that new users may have trouble disabling it, but improved options placement could fix that.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:37 pm
by Matt
I would prefer small incremental changes added over time rather than a single sweeping overhaul.

So my suggestions based on my own experience:
  • MIDI device selection should be under the existing MIDI options submenu.
  • "Set video mode" should be "Set resolution", OR the rendering device option should be in there as well.
  • Host gameplay options (allowcheats, etc.) should be in a separate menu from all user gameplay options (neverswitchonpickup, etc. which should be under Player Setup)

Comments on other people's suggestions:

I 100% disagree with Xaser about "Player Setup". It's the player, those are settings for the player, it makes perfect sense. (Especially considering that the obituaries showing your name also appear in singleplayer and lots of things - mirrors, etc. - will show your translation and skin.)

Software Options and OpenGL, etc. Options should definitely be available when you're using another renderer, because there might well be a situation where someone needs to change their settings for a given renderer before they actually switch to it - e.g., a driver conflict causes the current settings to crash immediately if Vulkan is selected - you need to start in software/GL/whatever, then go into the Vulkan settings menu, make the required changes to prevent the crash, then switch to Vulkan rendering.


Graf Zahl wrote:
phantombeta wrote:BTW, I think the old menu system will need to be kept entirely. There's at least a few mods that add stuff to menus like the gameplay options menu (Hideous Destructor does this), and this new menu wouldn't necessarily be compatible with them.
Yeah, one can tell people a thousand times NOT to do that - one can even block replacement of existing menus and create an uproar - and people STILL do not create their own top level menu to do stuff but instead clutter it across the existing menus. Frankly, I'm not sure how to deal with this. I have been extremely clear on saying that this stuff will break if the menus change and it still gets done. :(

HD specifically is constantly under development, so I'm fully aware what I'm doing can break and will change it if need be. What other, not-currently-maintained mods do this?

One possibility to handle this is for GZDoom to automatically take all such MENUDEF items that replace/add to GZDoom options, omit them from those menus and move them into some kind of automatically-generated top-level "shell" menu under some title "Legacy mod menu options" and a warning in the console that this was done. I don't know how much extra work this would take though.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:57 pm
by Rachael
Pixel Eater wrote:Something I haven't seen being discussed is whether or not some of the nitty-grittier options even need menu space. A lot of the set-and-forget preferences that only a power user would notice could remain console only.

I agree with this.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:46 pm
by Matt
I disagree - some of those options aren't obvious at all otherwise but could be unexpectedly helpful to people who may or may not be sophisticated enough to guess at all the possible cvars. An "Advanced Options" submenu would be appropriate though.

Sometimes, for instance, something that appears to be total gibberish might be set wrong.

phantombeta wrote:Doing that shit also makes the mod's options harder to find. I really don't get why people think adding their mods' options to the existing menus is a good idea.
One reason is that there's no apparent way to add a top-level menu option that has been documented in the wiki.
(And that big "Note:" also seems to presuppose that the modder will be making replacements!)

EDIT: The only way to add a top-level menu item is, apparently, to replace the top-level menu. I'm fine with this, but it does send a message that replacing stuff is the normal way to do things.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:56 pm
by Rachael
Truthfully though, if we had every single CVAR as a menu option, you'd never see the other end of menudef. There is a point between sensibility and insanity, and I think we've already passed that point, particularly with a few options in the past that I was asked to add.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:58 pm
by Pixel Eater
I agree with this.

Cool :)
I think if it could be narrowed down in that way, it would make rearranging what's left a whole lot easier. Some of what's currently exposed seems to me more useful to modders than for end-user customization (I'm implying the same reasoning behind why the dynamic light size became fixed, as I'm likely not being clear). Does anyone actually adjust pickup flash strength, turn off textures or change the bobbing amount?

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:59 pm
by Rachael
Pickup flash strength definitely needs to stay, as does bobbing amount. Turning off textures can be removed though.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:18 am
by Pixel Eater
Ok then, maybe I should make a list over the next few days as a starting point that can be added and removed from by saner people than myself (how does one even "add from") :wink:

That is if it's warranted?

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:41 am
by Rachael
Sure - we're soliciting ideas here, after all.

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:02 am
by PlayerLin
xenoxols wrote:
Trusty McLegit wrote:Another +1 to Xaser's proposal. I also think texture filtering should be on None (Trilinear) by default if that's still up for discussion

Yeah, filtering in Doom may have seemed cool at one point but now it just looks blurry. Adding to that new users may have trouble disabling it, but improved options placement could fix that.


As I remembered, Graf want it's on by default and that was discussed many times before and he never changed his mind. Unlike Doomsday engine 1.x, where you never be able to disable the filtering shit at all. But the latest 2.0.3/2.1-unstable has a preset in renderer option can be set to "vanilla" and disable everything else in the fancy rendering options shit. Of course, the engine still default is ON, with hq2x, but good luck for getting used on that very weird OS-like "taskbar" menu to disable and seems cannot just disable filtering with other fancy shit still enabled if preset is on vanilla. :P

At least we still have the option/CVAR to disable that filtering shit in GZDooM. :3:

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:59 pm
by Pixel Eater
So this is what we're working with:
Menus.gif

Two things I'm realising-
A) Relegating items to the console that aren't likely to be changed often can leave some strange defaults active. Maybe those should be worked on first, I'm all for having some localised presets like the compatibility modes.
2) What the hell does half of this stuff do?! :laff:

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:31 am
by Kotti
Clearly the most extensive menus are the most useless ones: "Gameplay options" and "Compatibility options" Why does this need two entries in the top level menu?
I think on the top level for gameplay only the compatibility profile option is needed, the rest of this wall of text should be moved a few levels down. With automatic compatibility most of this isn't even needed

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:15 am
by Caligari87
Agree with Kotti here; the compatibility and gameplay options would be better placed under a submenu with just the preset selector at the top level. And many of the gameplay options could do with some automatic presets as well (perhaps "Vanilla" and "GZDoom Default" to start with). Have a "custom" preset for both that opens up the more fine-grained menus.

8-)

Re: Brainstorming a GZDoom menu revamp

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:14 am
by Apeirogon
The current menu state not that bad.

But its lack simple conversation with user.
Like, I dont know what means "texture format rgba8" and I must use zdoom wiki, to at least understand what changes if I change rgba8 to s3tc_dxtx.
So it be nice to have popup notification/line on the top of the screen/defined and fixed message space where engine tell what options%_name_%, like rendering interpolation/interpolate monster movement/stretch short skies, mean and change, like on screenshots.