Pointless model format argument (release thread split)

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Tea Monster
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Pointless model format argument (release thread split)

Post by Tea Monster »

I was talking to people on the GZDoom discord about problems that model makers had with the IQM model format. We asked them if they could support something more modern and better supported like FBX. They didn't want to do that, which is their choice. They said they were debating whether to go with either gITF or IQM. I asked them if they could prioritise gITF because of multiple problems that exist with the IQM format.
This was what I was told:
Gutawer.jpg
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wildweasel
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by wildweasel »

Tea Monster wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:52 am I was talking to people on the GZDoom discord about problems that model makers had with the IQM model format. We asked them if they could support something more modern and better supported like FBX. They didn't want to do that, which is their choice. They said they were debating whether to go with either gITF or IQM. I asked them if they could prioritise gITF because of multiple problems that exist with the IQM format.
This was what I was told:
Gutawer.jpg
Don't misrepresent what the conversation was actually about. You've trimmed out all of the context. Here's what was actually said.
https://ibb.co/446kYdh
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Rachael
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Rachael »

Tea Monster wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:52 am I was talking to people on the GZDoom discord about problems that model makers had with the IQM model format. We asked them if they could support something more modern and better supported like FBX. They didn't want to do that, which is their choice. They said they were debating whether to go with either gITF or IQM. I asked them if they could prioritise gITF because of multiple problems that exist with the IQM format.
This was what I was told:
Gutawer.jpg
Yeah, I mean, it's not like you could like, WAIT for more formats to be supported, no, you had to make a complete ass of yourself in front of everyone, demand that glTF be supported RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!

It was IQM or nothing. More formats could be supported eventually, but it was IQM to even get bone model support AT ALL. Without IQM we would never even get the eventuality of glTF.

So seriously, quit your damn whining. It's old, it's tired, it's boring, and I am not beyond banning you if you don't stop this nonsense. Your favorite formats will be supported eventually, but we did have to take stepping stones to get there. SO SORRY FOR INCONVENIENCING YOU LIKE THAT! (not...)
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Xeotroid »

It's full FBX (proprietary format) support with lights, cameras, morph targets and NURBS splines or nothing, yo.
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wildweasel
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by wildweasel »

Xeotroid wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:37 am It's full FBX (proprietary format) support with lights, cameras, morph targets and NURBS splines or nothing, yo.
When can we expect a pull request? ;)
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Tea Monster
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Tea Monster »

It's not whining, I'm trying to give feedback from a modellers prospective. If you want to consider that 'whining' then that's on you.

Either way we approached you with a polite request and discussed it civilly and were met with swearing.
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Graf Zahl »

Yes, you are whining. If you cannot see how unreasonable your behavior is, I'm sorry for you.

We're gotta take what is available, it's either that or nothing.
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Rachael »

Tea Monster wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:12 am It's not whining, I'm trying to give feedback from a modellers prospective. If you want to consider that 'whining' then that's on you.

Either way we approached you with a polite request and discussed it civilly and were met with swearing.
You approached with a "polite request" and then when you were told "no" you decided to argue instead of accept the reasoning that IQM was done for a reason that had nothing to do with YOUR convenience, which culminated with a sarcastic statement on your part before you decided to leave. And then come back and leave immediately again.

Either way - as the old saying goes, put up or shut up. Do I REALLY have to remind you that it was all done for free? If you don't like it don't use it. I guess for you it would've been better to never have bone support for models at all, nevermind eventually MAYBE supporting glTF.
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Tea Monster
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Tea Monster »

Rachael wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:26 am
Either way - as the old saying goes, put up or shut up. Do I REALLY have to remind you that it was all done for free?
It's not just coders who give their time for free. Artists, pack maintainers and others all give their time to create features and content. All I'm saying is that their opinions should be met with at least some basic respect and civility. I'm not demanding anything. I'm **asking** that you treat people making stuff to go into your engine like humans. That's it.
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Gutawer »

Tea Monster wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:52 am I was talking to people on the GZDoom discord about problems that model makers had with the IQM model format. We asked them if they could support something more modern and better supported like FBX. They didn't want to do that, which is their choice. They said they were debating whether to go with either gITF or IQM. I asked them if they could prioritise gITF because of multiple problems that exist with the IQM format.
This was what I was told:
Gutawer.jpg
No, there was never any IQM vs glTF debate - I said I'd like to do glTF support eventually, which would be my own personal project - IQM support was already done while you were complaining, and since you were being very rude about the free work done by others in the community, I eventually told you what I said in that screenshot.

On a technical note, IQM is a much simpler format than glTF and as a result support is much easier and can serve as a jumping-off point for more complicated formats.
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by yum13241 »

Spoiler:
RIP Doom community.

1993-2022


Reason being that an argument is starting on a RELEASE THREAD. A @$%$!@ release thread. Something we are supposed to be happy about. Also isn't this technically cross forum drama? Why the hell would I care about some random person on the internet complaining about a voxel format. Again, RIP Doom community, or humanity in general?


A wise man once said the following:
Patience is a virtue, the patient succeed.

I doubt anyone's going unscathed.
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by wildweasel »

If you think an argument between one modeller and the forum staff/devs is the end of the Doom community, you clearly haven't been around the Doom community enough. We'll survive.

Me, I'm going to split this. This absolutely doesn't belong in News, and shame on the person who decided it did.
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by Rachael »

Tea Monster wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:23 am
It's not just coders who give their time for free. Artists, pack maintainers and others all give their time to create features and content. All I'm saying is that their opinions should be met with at least some basic respect and civility. I'm not demanding anything. I'm **asking** that you treat people making stuff to go into your engine like humans. That's it.
Programmers do not go to artists and DEMAND you make things for their engine. Artists just decide that this engine is the one that most fits their needs. You may have to decide at some points that this one does not fit your needs - and over time that may change either positively or negatively. That's just nature and how it works. And sometimes you have to accept "no" for an answer - which is something you thus far, have shown absolutely no evidence that you will ever do.

Well sorry. The answer is no. That will likely change in the future, but it's "no" right now, and when we say "no" it also means "leave us the fuck alone."

Making content for GZDoom does not entitle you to act entitled about the features you want. What you engaged in is essentially "bikeshedding" and it's the bane of every programmer. Every time we make a feature, SOMEONE comes in and bitches and moans because it is not EXACTLY THE WAY THEY WANT IT. This time it happened to be you (and a few others). It's not okay to do that, it's fine to request features but use the feature request forum for it, but don't come in demanding that it be done TO YOUR SPECS, and RIGHT NOW.
yum13241 wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:46 am
I doubt anyone's going unscathed.
I'm sorry, what? You somehow mistook me as someone who gave a fuck.
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Re: GZDoom 4.9.0 released

Post by yum13241 »

If you think an argument between one modeller and the forum staff/devs is the end of the Doom community, you clearly haven't been around the Doom community enough. We'll survive.

I was exaggerating.
Arguments like this cause me to think that humanity will kill itself due to it's own damn stupidity (I'm not trying to call out people in particular). I don't think we'll make it to the year 3000.

Let's hope that the NEWS is clear: Release threads are RELEASE threads, for RELEASE information, not go-bother-the-devs-because-I-can't-have-my-modelling-format-now thread. Thanks for getting the threadshitting out of here.
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Re: Pointless model format argument (release thread split)

Post by yum13241 »

I'm sorry, what? You somehow mistook me as someone who gave a fuck.

I though an admin would issue warnings for threadshitting.

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