What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

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Boreas249
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What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Boreas249 »

Was just wondering. I've seen some pretty large maps (all only being Zdoom compatible) and was wondering what is the maximum possible size for a map in Zdoom/GZDoom?

BONUS: For those who have played Duke Nukem 3D, how large can a ZDoom map be compared to a Duke3D map? Putting the room over room stuff aside as well.
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by wildweasel »

Boreas249 wrote:Was just wondering. I've seen some pretty large maps (all only being Zdoom compatible) and was wondering what is the maximum possible size for a map in Zdoom/GZDoom?
No larger than 32767 map units on any axis, and if I remember correctly, no open areas with any visible distance longer than 16383 units. In fact, I think even those numbers sound a little high; basically just consider that things will get unstable if you get too close to them.
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Gez »

Maps can generally be much larger than in the Build engine because for open terrain BSP is much more efficient than the recursive portal system used by Build. Stuff like Sunder MAP10: The Hag's Finger, or Hellcore 2.0 MAP09: Hobb's End Horror, or even say Planisphere 2 would be pretty much impossible in Duke 3D, even with a eDuke32.
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Graf Zahl
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Graf Zahl »

Gez wrote: Hellcore 2.0 MAP09: Hobb's End Horror,
I have a working renderer for a Build-style portal algorithm lying around - and this map pretty much dies with it. The constant sorting of geometry utterly kills it.
The code for this is available in the GZDoom repo but not used. But if anyone wants to play around with it and try to make it work better, be my guest.
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Marisa the Magician
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Marisa the Magician »

I can confirm that any open area bigger than 32768x32768 will just make the engine give up rendering anything at all.
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Nevander »

MarisaKirisame wrote:I can confirm that any open area bigger than 32768x32768 will just make the engine give up rendering anything at all.
My guess would be because it's asking you "why in hell are you making a map this big for an early 90's game!?" :D
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by NeuralStunner »

It isn't just a rendering thing, though. Calculations for traces (bullets, line of sight) can also flip out if the distance overflows.

As Gez has pointed out before, don't forget to watch your hypotenuse as well:. A 16Kx16K square room is going to be much more than 16K from corner to corner. If the room is square, avoid sides over 11.5K.
Spoiler: Math. Not even once.
I'm actually curious if smaller geometry that's scaled up (E.G. a skybox) is less expensive to render.
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Jaxxoon R
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Jaxxoon R »

That actually reminds me of Ratchet and Clank 2; the racetracks were too big to fit in RAM along with the main level, so they ended up scaling down the tracks and all the actors that inhabited them by 50%.
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Zanieon »

I once hit the limit with this map and it wasn't a nice experience :? :
Image

And i had to split it in two making the exit in a place which i didn't planned but still making sense, and the second map continues where the split happens.
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by JPL »

Graf Zahl wrote: I have a working renderer for a Build-style portal algorithm lying around - and this map pretty much dies with it. The constant sorting of geometry utterly kills it.
The code for this is available in the GZDoom repo but not used. But if anyone wants to play around with it and try to make it work better, be my guest.
Just curious, as someone interested in dabbling in this sort of renderer but only familiar with Build's from Fabien Sanglard's code teardown: is this weakness fundamental to portal renderers or just to Build's fairly archaic method of handling them?
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Re: What is the maximum possible size for Zdoom/GZDoom maps

Post by Viscra Maelstrom »

Nevander wrote:My guess would be because it's asking you "why in hell are you making a map this big for an early 90's game!?" :D
because this isn't the 90s anymore. it's pretty clear with wads like Hellcore 2.0 and Sunlust that some people are aiming to make bigger, badder maps with tons of stuff going on in them.

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