An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
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An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
I don't know if this is the right place for this, but at this point I just want to get this off my chest. Long-timer Nash getting mad enough to leave and give his works the scorched-earth treatment is sign enough to me that something is wrong here, and that this community is nowhere near as close-knit as it apparently thinks it is.
First off, this alone wasn't enough to make me write this letter---this was just the straw that broke this camel's back. I've seen Esselfortium and Tormentor667 have a public spat, I've seen Sarge MK IV's infamous behavior (which, to be fair, I consider in a class of his own and so horrible no one could have wholly predicted it), and now I've seen Edward850 and Nash get into an ugly public webbrawl that left Nash deciding to leave apparently permanently. Oh, and also a debate between Lava Grunt and Graf Zhal, that had Graf being perhaps unnecessarily snarky.
I think when notable names of the community get into spats like high-schoolers, something is wrong with the community. And while I respect WildWeasel and BlazingPhoenix as people, given that users with consistently awful posting history and a poor grasp of the rules are given MANY second chances and don't learn much from their mistakes (DartPower comes to mind), I know that most moderation is done behind-the-scenes here on the ZDoom forums but at the same time I question whether current measures are enough.
tl;dr: People from this community I bloody respected for their accomplishments keep having ugly public spats over a hobby centered around a decade-and-a-half-old game, demonstrating major ego problems and poor priorities on what's important. Sometimes they scare each other off the forum's permanently. And THEN there's amateurish posting that is allowed to go on for a long, long time (DartPower and also ibm5555---I wish I could say no offense, buuut...)) when it is likely pretty clear some users are sharper on the uptake than others. The mods are nice people but that doesn't seem to be stopping some drastic stuff from happening.
I don't really have much stake in this aside from keeping up with the Projects forum, but seeing drama in General and seeing Edward850 being a bit arrogant in the Hideous Destructor thread, along with Nash's departure, is one strike too many for me.
I don't know what to do here, aside from say that I don't like the current mood around the forums and I don't like community-crippling drama keeps happening.
-Big C
First off, this alone wasn't enough to make me write this letter---this was just the straw that broke this camel's back. I've seen Esselfortium and Tormentor667 have a public spat, I've seen Sarge MK IV's infamous behavior (which, to be fair, I consider in a class of his own and so horrible no one could have wholly predicted it), and now I've seen Edward850 and Nash get into an ugly public webbrawl that left Nash deciding to leave apparently permanently. Oh, and also a debate between Lava Grunt and Graf Zhal, that had Graf being perhaps unnecessarily snarky.
I think when notable names of the community get into spats like high-schoolers, something is wrong with the community. And while I respect WildWeasel and BlazingPhoenix as people, given that users with consistently awful posting history and a poor grasp of the rules are given MANY second chances and don't learn much from their mistakes (DartPower comes to mind), I know that most moderation is done behind-the-scenes here on the ZDoom forums but at the same time I question whether current measures are enough.
tl;dr: People from this community I bloody respected for their accomplishments keep having ugly public spats over a hobby centered around a decade-and-a-half-old game, demonstrating major ego problems and poor priorities on what's important. Sometimes they scare each other off the forum's permanently. And THEN there's amateurish posting that is allowed to go on for a long, long time (DartPower and also ibm5555---I wish I could say no offense, buuut...)) when it is likely pretty clear some users are sharper on the uptake than others. The mods are nice people but that doesn't seem to be stopping some drastic stuff from happening.
I don't really have much stake in this aside from keeping up with the Projects forum, but seeing drama in General and seeing Edward850 being a bit arrogant in the Hideous Destructor thread, along with Nash's departure, is one strike too many for me.
I don't know what to do here, aside from say that I don't like the current mood around the forums and I don't like community-crippling drama keeps happening.
-Big C
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
So, uh...You want me to just ban more people on sight? Maybe I am a little too willing to give people a chance, but in my opinion, I think a person should give extremely clear demonstration that they do not intend to change, before I'm willing to just boot them from the community.
There's more I could say here, but I'm on a phone right now, so I'll wait until I have a real God damn keyboard in front of me first. (Screw touch screen keyboards.)
There's more I could say here, but I'm on a phone right now, so I'll wait until I have a real God damn keyboard in front of me first. (Screw touch screen keyboards.)
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
No, I wasn't saying you should randomly ban people on sight.
I'm saying we need more examples for good behavior besides merely the rules, because the rules don't seem to be enough to instill some sense of civility in people. MAYBE tempbans, but I'd rather not have that.
That much said, I DO personally think you give people a bit too much of a chance. It's all for good reasons, I know, it's just that some of the people you're forgiving are NOT new-accounts, were NOT born yesterday, and SHOULD have started acting like grown adults much longer ago.
Also, forgive my own short reply---I'm on my laptop on a bus' wi-fi.
I'm saying we need more examples for good behavior besides merely the rules, because the rules don't seem to be enough to instill some sense of civility in people. MAYBE tempbans, but I'd rather not have that.
That much said, I DO personally think you give people a bit too much of a chance. It's all for good reasons, I know, it's just that some of the people you're forgiving are NOT new-accounts, were NOT born yesterday, and SHOULD have started acting like grown adults much longer ago.
Also, forgive my own short reply---I'm on my laptop on a bus' wi-fi.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
Big C wrote:I don't know if this is the right place for this, but at this point I just want to get this off my chest. Long-timer Nash getting mad enough to leave and give his works the scorched-earth treatment is sign enough to me that something is wrong here, and that this community is nowhere near as close-knit as it apparently thinks it is.
Yes, sorry, but the only person here to deserve some blame is Nash himself with his childish behavior.
The entire thing started with him doing a pointless rant and being told that he was essentially missing the forest for the trees - which then prompted him to start another whine-thread where he (not unexpectedly) got a few rude remarks.
If that's enough to drive him off, I'm afraid I can't feel sorry.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
Perhaps more banning is not the answer but rather more timeouts for a few days to around a week? For people to cool off, gather their thoughts, and come back to the table with something cohesive and respectable? I definitely agree with you for not wanting to ban anybody until proven shitposter (or just plain old bullheaded and aggressive), but I think a bit of a timeout gets the message across more towards telling them "hey bud, take a step back, get a breather, do some other stuff for a while, then come back when all is rested."
EDIT: To clarify, I'd think we as a community really don't want to give anyone the boot when they happen to have a bad day. There might be some underlying issues that just come to a head now and then. Banning these people might just piss on their interest in the community wholly and never cause them to return, which I find kind of sad to be honest. Though I will say for the most part, that we do have a respectable community with a great deal of accomplishments.
EDIT: To clarify, I'd think we as a community really don't want to give anyone the boot when they happen to have a bad day. There might be some underlying issues that just come to a head now and then. Banning these people might just piss on their interest in the community wholly and never cause them to return, which I find kind of sad to be honest. Though I will say for the most part, that we do have a respectable community with a great deal of accomplishments.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
This is the internet. Drama happens. Learn to deal with it or stop involving yourself in internet communities.
No internet community is completely free of drama. There will ALWAYS be drama. It's how the internet works. This is a thing that will NEVER change.
No internet community is completely free of drama. There will ALWAYS be drama. It's how the internet works. This is a thing that will NEVER change.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
If you retaliate, then it just becomes worse and blows up into a huge mess. This applies to everybody.Graf Zahl wrote:Big C wrote:I don't know if this is the right place for this, but at this point I just want to get this off my chest. Long-timer Nash getting mad enough to leave and give his works the scorched-earth treatment is sign enough to me that something is wrong here, and that this community is nowhere near as close-knit as it apparently thinks it is.
Yes, sorry, but the only person here to deserve some blame is Nash himself with his childish behavior.
The entire thing started with him doing a pointless rant and being told that he was essentially missing the forest for the trees - which then prompted him to start another whine-thread where he (not unexpectedly) got a few rude remarks.
If that's enough to drive him off, I'm afraid I can't feel sorry.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
I don't think you're being much better here, Graf. I don't care how you see what Nash did, I really think even you could stand to be a bit more polite and less blunt at times. Bear in mind, both Nash and Edward got warns for that incident.Graf Zahl wrote:Yes, sorry, but the only person here to deserve some blame is Nash himself with his childish behavior.
The entire thing started with him doing a pointless rant and being told that he was essentially missing the forest for the trees - which then prompted him to start another whine-thread where he (not unexpectedly) got a few rude remarks.
If that's enough to drive him off, I'm afraid I can't feel sorry.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
Go back to 4chan. Just because drama is inevitable, it doesn't mean we should try to come to a solution that makes people happy whenever a problem arises. Justifying drama and insults because "it's the internet" is childish.phantombeta wrote:This is the internet. Drama happens. Learn to deal with it or stop involving yourself in internet communities.
No internet community is completely free of drama. There will ALWAYS be drama. It's how the internet works. This is a thing that will NEVER change.
And I'm not defending Nash or anyone else here.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
It's basic human nature. People get angry at each other and tempers flare.
Some people think they're better than other people for dumb reasons and have the right to talk down on other people because of their position. Some people are less interested in having a discussion and more interested in trying to come up with the smarmiest dismissal they can and put on their coolface afterwards. Some people get upset when they feel like their suggestions and ideas are being blown off. Some people think their suggestions carry more weight than other people's and should be heeded more.
Not everyone is going to get along with everyone else, because not everyone is going to see the same scenario the same way, and when two personalities grind against each other there's going to be conflict and sparks.
I don't think "people get in fights" is a good reason to increase moderation (though I am perfectly fine with telling some nerds to sit down and shut up), because people are always going to get into fights about things they're passionate about. But I also don't think "notable names" should be given a pass on their behavior. Forums are not a meritocracy, where you gain the ability to slip past some rules and snap back at someone you don't like or post an ebin one-liner just because you've contributed at least X+1 amount of work to the community.
In the end, how people respond to a situation is their own decision.
Some people think they're better than other people for dumb reasons and have the right to talk down on other people because of their position. Some people are less interested in having a discussion and more interested in trying to come up with the smarmiest dismissal they can and put on their coolface afterwards. Some people get upset when they feel like their suggestions and ideas are being blown off. Some people think their suggestions carry more weight than other people's and should be heeded more.
Not everyone is going to get along with everyone else, because not everyone is going to see the same scenario the same way, and when two personalities grind against each other there's going to be conflict and sparks.
I don't think "people get in fights" is a good reason to increase moderation (though I am perfectly fine with telling some nerds to sit down and shut up), because people are always going to get into fights about things they're passionate about. But I also don't think "notable names" should be given a pass on their behavior. Forums are not a meritocracy, where you gain the ability to slip past some rules and snap back at someone you don't like or post an ebin one-liner just because you've contributed at least X+1 amount of work to the community.
In the end, how people respond to a situation is their own decision.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
The entire Doom community is getting slowly killed by dramas and shitstorms.
Nothing more to say.
Nothing more to say.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
Drama can and will happen. I don't think there's a way to prevent it. It's what happens afterwards that should tell us how healthy our community actually is.Lord Smash wrote:The entire Doom community is getting slowly killed by dramas and shitstorms.
Nothing more to say.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
Just consider this year the apex of drama stories, but don't consider Doom community being killed by it, otherwise was better Randy, Wildweasel and BlazingPhoenix do a complete wipe and reboot the entire forum again.
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
what the fuck happen
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Re: An open letter to the ZDoom community regarding drama
Oh, believe me, some days I wish we could all just start fresh, and everyone would just build up their reputation from the bottom again. But who's to say what would happen then?Revilution wrote:Just consider this year the apex of drama stories, but don't consider Doom community being killed by it, otherwise was better Randy, Wildweasel and BlazingPhoenix do a complete wipe and reboot the entire forum again.