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Hi guys,

I recently finished work on a Heretic level called Dark Deity's Bastion, and I was hoping to find some people who wouldn't mind playtesting it and giving me some constructive criticism. Any feedback is welcome. That means comments on architecture, gameplay, difficulty, item placement...whatever. Also, if anyone manages to get the level to work in a source port that I haven't tried yet, please let me know. Below are some screenshots of the level.

http://imageshack.us/f/833/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/27/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/685/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/594/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/851/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/11/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/820/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/29/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/546/screenshotheretic201108.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/99/screenshotheretic201108.png/

And here are a few videos of small portions of the level.





EDIT: Level released, Get it here.

I'll try it, I'm always up for some heretic.
Also, what is the intended source port?

You should really consider joining HPack, nice work!

A.Gamma wrote:I'll try it, I'm always up for some heretic.
Also, what is the intended source port?

Well, I've only been able to get the level to work in ZDoom and Vavoom, but something tells me that if I knew more about level design, I could make it work in more. It's definitely not anywhere near vanilla-compatible, as it exceeds quite a few vanilla limits, but a Boom-type source port that lifts limits ought to work. I just can't determine why not.

Ok, I've been playing this for the past few days... map is huge. That aside it's looking nice, architecture is ok but maybe the outside areas could use a some height variation.
Health is a little tight in some areas and abundant in others and while it's not really a problem it gets boring to track back half of the map to replenish your health.
Ammo on the spot and so is weapon progression.
Really nice map, I'll give some more feedback when I finish it.

A.Gamma wrote:Ok, I've been playing this for the past few days... map is huge. That aside it's looking nice, architecture is ok but maybe the outside areas could use a some height variation.
Health is a little tight in some areas and abundant in others and while it's not really a problem it gets boring to track back half of the map to replenish your health.
Ammo on the spot and so is weapon progression.
Really nice map, I'll give some more feedback when I finish it.

Thanks for the feedback, A.Gamma! Some very good suggestions/observations. I will look into fixing/improving the map with what you said in mind. Remember to consult the text file if you run into trouble with the puzzles near the end, and if something about the puzzles seems bad/wrong, be sure to tell me. Thanks again!

Tormentor667 wrote:You should really consider joining HPack, nice work!

You're being rude and spammy Tormentor667, People will come to on their own terms. Not yours. If I see you spam Hpack one more time I will report you on the grounds of harassing another user. This is like the umpteenth time that you have spammed that project and I'm sick of your rude and inconsiderate behaviour.

FireSeraphim wrote:You're being rude and spammy Tormentor667, People will come to on their own terms. Not yours. If I see you spam Hpack one more time I will report you on the grounds of harassing another user. This is like the umpteenth time that you have spammed that project and I'm sick of your rude and inconsiderate behaviour.

Hey now, if you're going to report someone, report them, don't be an asshole and yell at them about it. Now because of this I nearly issued YOU a warning instead of Torm.

One word.

AMMO.
I needed more of it.

After a while (I got the Skull Rod) I was ok, but even that had too little ammo.
Also, if it was supposed to make gameplay hard, the lack of ammo only lead to annoyance as given the large spaces I was easily able to avoid EVERYTHING. Absolutely everything. Just sprinting around the map looking for f*cking crystal wand ammo.

After I got into the stronghold, though, things evened out a little. I was given an Ethereal crossbow to deal with 5 or so disciples, which is not really a very fair fight. I found myself on a constant 47 health points, no matter what I did, which was annoying.

Those are my grievances.

Now, here's where the map is good:

The architecture. Simply loved it, got a great feel, felt very immersed. I liked the usage of textures.
The monster variety is brilliant. It's a little daunting at first, at least until you realise that sprinting around the map means you can dodge all of their projectiles.
I liked--sort of--the weapon placement. Giving the player a skull rod to start off with (once you find it) proved to be pretty fulfilling, and I had a great time blasting away weredragons.
But...you need to put out some more ammo, and possibly give the player an ethereal crossbow earlier on in the level.
The difficulty of the level is quite alright, actually. I played on medium (bringeth them oneth) and found it challenging but not impossible, as long as you don't panic (disciples...erk) and remain calm.

So yes, mixed feedback but otherwise I loved it, and you should consider making more!

Well to be fair, I give the player the Ethereal crossbow pretty early on...you can go get it within the first 30 seconds if you run straight across from the waterfalls to the wooden door on the left and go inside. It's also impossible to miss the crossbow since you need to pick it up to get the yellow key, which is required to complete the level.

As for ammo, I don't want to sound ungrateful as I'm very pleased whenever anyone takes the time to play what I made, but I'm pretty sure ammo is abundant. I've done about 30 or so playthroughs of this level myself, and in all of them I always have a surplus of ammunition at all times. Granted I made the level, so I know where everything is, but that leads to my point...exploration. I purposefully designed the level to encourage exploration so that you'd see most of the map while finding ammo caches. I also feel that you may not be conserving ammo appropriately. (Ex. Be sure not to pick up Greater Runes when you have 399 runes for your Hellstaff, because you'll be wasting 99 runes just to get 1. Wait until that weapon's ammo is depleted and then grab the Greater Runes.) Check the 2 fountains in the courtyard for ammo, be sure to get the Dragon Claw from the wooden ledge where the Undead Warriors are, also the gallows has some ammo as well. In addition, I give the player the Gauntlets of the Necromancer early on as well, so if you want to conserve you can just zap gargoyles or smaller enemies with a high pain chance But to be fair, maybe I should make it more obvious that there's ammo in the fountains, good call.

Like you say, everything is dodgeable in Heretic. There are no hitscan enemies like Chaingunners in DOOM, so even if you temporarily run out of ammo, you can outrun any enemy or enemy projectile. That's why Heretic maps usually have more baddies...to compensate for the lack of hitscanners and bolster difficulty (see Curse of D'sparil by Kristus). I rarely drop below 75 health on my playthroughs of this map, and I honestly think it could be made harder. But I might just play Heretic too much

Well to be fair, I give the player the Ethereal crossbow pretty early on...you can go get it within the first 30 seconds if you run straight across from the waterfalls to the wooden door on the left and go inside. It's also impossible to miss the crossbow since you need to pick it up to get the yellow key, which is required to complete the level.

Well, when 'pretty early on' is after about two minutes of running around the map dodging green, red stuff and purple stuff, I'd say you need to make it a little clearer. I for one, am usually a very cautious player, so I obviously did not enter that room (yes, I did see the doors, ran past them in fact) because I had not yet cleared the surrounding area of monsters that could potentially double around behind me and then attempt an assassination. You might want to spread some more crystal wand ammo around places of interest, as it could indicate to players greater rewards if they venture inside. Also, consider making use of drop-boxes (where a player wanders into a room, picks up the key and suddenly the walls drop down, revealing monsters that they then have to deal with) to add effect (much like you did with the disciples) in the main area. I'm not sure exactly how this would work, as it is very open and a large space. I liked the gallows, though. That was nice architecture.

As for ammo, I don't want to sound ungrateful as I'm very pleased whenever anyone takes the time to play what I made

No problem, man. You put it here to be tested, that's what we do.

but I'm pretty sure ammo is abundant

I speak mainly of crystal wand ammo in the start, where there is absolutely no ammo for any weapon the player has in plain sight. I found a fountain guarded by a weredragon with about eight wand crystals, but that was it.

I know where everything is, but that leads to my point...exploration. I purposefully designed the level to encourage exploration so that you'd see most of the map while finding ammo caches.

...I saw no ammo caches. I make a point of only ever giving the player large amounts of ammo when they receive a weapon or find a secret, or are about to face a large wave of enemies. Otherwise, dribble it in slowly. If the player runs out of ammo at any time, no matter for how long, then it's a good sign that you need to add some more ammo just lying around where the player can get to it. Also, don't be afraid to spam crystal wand shots (well, not spam, obviously, but be a little generous) as once players find a decent weapon, they'll usually only use it to conserve ammo. I found that hard to do, seeing as there seemed to be no ammo for anything else anyway.

I also feel that you may not be conserving ammo appropriately.

Don't be snarky. ;]

Check the 2 fountains in the courtyard for ammo

the first fountain had ammo?

be sure to get the Dragon Claw from the wooden ledge where the Undead Warriors are, also the gallows has some ammo as well

pretty sure the gallows IS the undead warrior area, and besides that if I found a dragon claw, I did not recieve much ammo as I do not remember using it.

In addition, I give the player the Gauntlets of the Necromancer early on as well

I believe I received that AFTER getting the crossbow.

o if you want to conserve you can just zap gargoyles or smaller enemies with a high pain chance But to be fair, maybe I should make it more obvious that there's ammo in the fountains, good call

thank you for the compliment. I found myself using the wand to snipe gargoyles and the rod to finish them off.

Like you say, everything is dodgeable in Heretic. There are no hitscan enemies like Chaingunners in DOOM, so even if you temporarily run out of ammo, you can outrun any enemy or enemy projectile. That's why Heretic maps usually have more baddies...to compensate for the lack of hitscanners and bolster difficulty (see Curse of D'sparil by Kristus). I rarely drop below 75 health on my playthroughs of this map, and I honestly think it could be made harder. But I might just play Heretic too much

No, there are no hitscanners. That much is true. And I'm not exactly complaining about a lack of health, I found that bareable and quite challenging, really. Also, Heretic enemies have more health as well, as another way to help compensate.

I honestly think it could be made harder

it could be made harder, that's correct. But, I feel that the way it is is a respectable difficulty. I wouldn't change that part. Just add some more ammo lying around.

Thanks for listening.
Wargasm92, out.

Wargasm92 wrote:Well, when 'pretty early on' is after about two minutes of running around the map dodging green, red stuff and purple stuff, I'd say you need to make it a little clearer.

Wouldn't that make things a bit easy? I like to make the player use the elvenwand a bit in my levels, not just in the beginning, but throughout the entire level. That way he can't always blast through enemies with only big guns. It forces the player to save more powerful weaponry for certain situations, or else be stuck with the elvenwand against an Iron Lich. Plus, there's a Hellstaff with ammo directly to your left after you descend from the waterfalls.

Also, since you said you had trouble finding the Hellstaff, I increased the sector lighting and moved it forward so it really stands out now. Hope that helps.

Also, consider making use of drop-boxes

Great idea, I think I'll do that!

I speak mainly of crystal wand ammo in the start, where there is absolutely no ammo for any weapon the player has in plain sight. I found a fountain guarded by a weredragon with about eight wand crystals, but that was it.

The other fountain is packed with ethereal arrows. The lit corridor where the 2 small doors are has 6 crystals, the fountain has 8, and the gallows has a geode. That equates to 190 elvenwand shots, not counting the 50 you start with (that'd be 240 total). I find that with all that ammo, the wand is usually enough to defeat most of the enemies in the starting area, on skill 4.

If the player runs out of ammo at any time, no matter for how long, then it's a good sign that you need to add some more ammo just lying around where the player can get to it.

Well that depends on your mapping style. Sometimes it can make a map more interesting, making the player afraid of death due to low ammo, then giving him more and restoring his courage. Sometimes maps like that, those that toy with the player's emotions, are the best.

Don't be snarky. ;]

I wasn't being snarky at all; logic would dictate that if I am always ahead of the curve ammo-wise in 30 out of 30 runs, then either you must be missing ammo(which I'm attempting to address in my fixes) or not conserving it well enough. I'm not one to lecture a person on how to play Heretic, since I'm no expert myself, but when I play I try to make each shot connect, and I rarely miss. Perhaps this is not the way most people play though, so maybe I should take that into account. I just remember Curse of D'Sparil being very strict with ammo, even by my standards, so I didn't want to be too generous.

the first fountain had ammo?

Ok, I made the fountains more eye-catching by lighting them better. There's no way you can miss them now. They also look a little cooler

pretty sure the gallows IS the undead warrior area

No, the gallows are on a stone base. The wooden ledge I'm referring to is connected to the main indoor area, directly opposite the gallows, across the courtyard.

Also, I'm just curious, did you find any secrets? If so, which ones? Did you get the Bag of Holding? That might explain why ammo was a problem for you, and if so I need to address that. One thing I do when I test the level myself is that I never use artifacts and NEVER use the Firemace, just in case a player doesn't find any artifacts or the Firemace doesn't spawn in his game. And what did you think of the puzzles? Too easy? Too hard? Too silly? Thanks again for taking the time to test and relaying your opinions.

Don't be snarky. ;]

Well, I was actually attempting to be funny, hence the winking smiley face, but hey whatever. ;].

Also, consider making use of drop-boxes

Great idea, I think I'll do that!

Excellent...

The other fountain is packed with ethereal arrows.

Not helpful is you don't have a crossbow yet...

The lit corridor where the 2 small doors are has 6 crystals, the fountain has 8, and the gallows has a geode. That equates to 190 elvenwand shots, not counting the 50 you start with (that'd be 240 total).

Well, I don't know about you, but all I know is that I found most of those crystals and yet I still ran out.

Well that depends on your mapping style. Sometimes it can make a map more interesting, making the player afraid of death due to low ammo, then giving him more and restoring his courage. Sometimes maps like that, those that toy with the player's emotions, are the best.

Or, making the player pissed off that he can't find any ammo, and leaving. Like I said, you have to trickle it. Have confrontations that challenge the use of player's ammo, but don't just rely on that. For example, giving the player the dragon claw, then having him emerge into a corridor with a great many weak enemies to be mowed down, encouraging use of the dragon claw even if the player had adequate ammo for other weapons that could have been cheaper--but less fun, of course--to use. Then, you could confront the player with a few disciples or some such, making the player wish that they had conserved their ammo. Then, in the future, when you repeat this design, the player tries harder to save ammo, and at that point you trickle in a little less to make it trickier. Just a random thought, though, honestly I have no idea if that would really work.

No, the gallows are on a stone base. The wooden ledge I'm referring to is connected to the main indoor area, directly opposite the gallows, across the courtyard.

Right, yes. I remember what you're talking about now. I couldn't get up to that for a while, for some reason. I can't remember why, though.

Also, I'm just curious, did you find any secrets?

Yes.

Did you get the Bag of Holding?

No.

One thing I do when I test the level myself is that I never use artifacts and NEVER use the Firemace, just in case a player doesn't find any artifacts or the Firemace doesn't spawn in his game.

I do sometimes use artifacts, yes. Also, COMRADE! I never use the Firemace either--I think for the heretic-version of the BFG, it sucks mightily.

And what did you think of the puzzles? Too easy? Too hard? Too silly?

...
...
...
What puzzles?

Hey. I decided to download and give this a shot--Heretic mods are always fantastic, and I'm glad to see to see more to this under-appreciated gem.
Here's a sort of first-impressions sort of thing. I'll see if I can give it another go later tonight for more in-depth thoughts.

*: Why would you suggest turning freelook off? Heretic was the game that started freelook.

*: Not sure I agree with giving players the Hellstaff right away. It's just a quick turn to the left, run up the stairs, and bam--second most powerful weapon in your hand.

*: I love the architecture and the layout. Areas are pretty big to move around in, and everything feels massive. It's sprawling, but you're not constantly wandering back and forth wondering where the hell to go. Areas have some decent detail without stopping the players on everything. Though later on in the map, as you start to open up more and more, it does feel like you need to run around more often to replenish health/ammo. I would suggest including just a bit more in the later parts and areas, so it doesn't feel like you need to backtrack so much.

*: Pretty clever way to hide where the Backpack is. It's not impossible to find, but very easy to miss if you're careless in looking around for secrets. If someone else has a problem with ammo, though, I'm not sure I agree with putting it only in a single secret area. Perhaps multiple secret areas with backpacks so the player has a higher chance to find one, or replace the secret backpack with something else and make it a regular item?

Greetings TerminusEst13! First of all, thanks for taking time to play the level! I'll quickly address some of your points.

1. You raise an interesting point about freelook. You are correct that Heretic started freelook, and so why would I want to take it away? In the end, you might be right; I may relent and leave freelook on. I guess my hatred of it (I'm also an avid DOOMer) shows through, but I shouldn't extend that to others whose preferences are different than mine.

2. The Hellstaff is given due to the opening area being somewhat difficult. Ammo for it is limited, so I don't feel that it trivializes the beginning of the map. At this point, I kinda like it where it is, but if more people say it's a bad idea I may change/remove it.

3. Some other people have talked about health in later areas. I'd be interested to know WHICH areas specifically. A description or screenshot of the area would help me greatly.

4. Your idea for the backpack is actually not bad at all. Maybe give it once as a secret and then, much later, as a non-secret obvious give-away, since at the end the player will be wanting it pretty badly. Good call.