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Graf Zahl wrote:So you'd use it as a means to circumvent the permissions that are given to you. Yeah, right. I'd say the author has the right to place such restrictions on his map as a whole and that'd make such mods as questionable.

I wouldn't use it for anything of the sort. I don't map. :-p

But no, the author has no more legal right to say you can't create a new THINGS lump, than they have to say you can't create a new texture and sprite modification that turns makes it into a Simpson's TC and advocate that everyone play that instead of the original. If people refrain from doing so, it is only out of politeness.

As to whether you could legally create a modified lump, the answer is pretty clearly no unless perhaps if almost none of the original remains anymore, in which case you get to a legal grey area. Besides, I was really only calling it an advantage in that it is something actually new that his scheme allows.

DaniJ wrote:Texture artist working on resources:
With WAD
Opens texture in Photoshop, makes changes and saves to file. Opens XWE and imports texture into the WAD. Runs jDoom with -file mywad.wad

With Lump Assemby (a folder on your HD).
Opens texture in Photoshop, makes changes and saves to file inside the Lump Assembly. Runs jDoom with -vdmap pathtomylumpassembly }jDoom/data

The idea is that when using a lump assembly you don't have to constantly import files into your WAD before you can test the results. This particular step is the single most troublesome issue with DOOM editing and one that can be eliminated completely.

When your mod is finished you simply right click the folder containing your lump assembly and select "add to zip". Job done, mod ready for distribution.

Isn't that basically the same as:

Mapper working on maps:
With WAD
Opens wad in map editor, makes changes and saves.

With Lump Assemby (a folder on your HD).
Opens map wad in map editor, makes changes and saves to file inside the Lump Assembly.

The idea is that when using a lump assembly you don't have to constantly import files into your WAD before you can test the results. This particular step is the single most troublesome issue with DOOM editing and one that can be eliminated completely.

When your mod is finished you simply right click the folder containing your lump assembly and select "add to zip". Job done, mod ready for distribution.

..plus you don't have to split the map wad into lumps? (AFAIK there isn't any map editor that can handle maps splitted into individual lumps)

Isn't that basically the same as:

Yes because in your map editor you could save to ZIP/folder instead of save to WAD (though it really doesn't matter).

In the case of map data you'd be best to simply regard this as an academic concern that is of no importance.

You wouldn't need to then copy the lumps out of a WAD and put them in a ZIP/Lump Assembly cos that WOULD be pointless.

(AFAIK there isn't any map editor that can handle maps splitted into individual lumps)

Every DOOM/Hexen map editor that ever existed does this already.

DaniJ wrote:

(AFAIK there isn't any map editor that can handle maps splitted into individual lumps)

Every DOOM/Hexen map editor that ever existed does this already.

Tell me one editor that can handle maps that are not packaged in a WAD? So, no matter how you twist it this isn't true.

Tell me one editor that can handle maps that are not packaged in a WAD? So, no matter how you twist it this isn't true.

I'm not twisting it in any way. Trying to hide the complexity by telling users something different IS Graf. Don't try to pull me up on this when in reality I'm telling it like it is, when YOU are the one trying to hide the actuality of the DOOM/Hexen format behind carefully worded and purposefully misleading examples. Anyone who has worked with DOOM for long enough can see right through you but newbies who don't will just assume I am trying to make things more complicated, while you make yourself out to be the bastion of the KISS principle. Play fair Graf and lets have a proper discussion.

FACT 1:
DOOM/Hexen format maps are made up of multiple lumps and ALL existing editors need to load/save maps into those seperate lumps.

FACT 2:
Current map editors only support loading those seperate lumps from within a WAD and not from within a ZIP.

Seriously though, we need to just forget about this as we are just covering old ground and going round in circles. We'll agree to disagree.

DaniJ wrote: FACT 1:
DOOM/Hexen format maps are made up of multiple lumps and ALL existing editors need to load/save maps into those seperate lumps.

FACT 1: Nobody cares! (And that's my whole point.) The user only sees one WAD and IMO that's good.

I doubt Graf can carefully word and slyly twist what he's saying, as English isn't his first language

However, he does have a point, what you're doing, compared to what's happening now is a bit like selling eggs individually, but putting each one into a package afterwards, compared to selling a dozen eggs.

Whilst it's basically the same deal, it's a lot easier to think of a map as one entity (a WAD), than as 12 seperate entities all interwoven and edited by means of vastly complex stuff. Plus, all software I've ever experienced treats the maps as one entity (XWE displays all the lumps, but editing a map in that is practically impossible). Mapping programs, like DEU and DB work by making the mapper work with 12 lumps as one entity, not 12 lumps as 12 seperate entities.

A better analogy would probably be saying comparing these ides to how you look at an office chair.

You know it's actually made of several different components, but you use it as one thing, don't you? You can even move it aronud, change bits and pull levers, but in the end it's a chair, not several seperate components. Maps in a wad are like a chair, whilst maps in a zip, for the end-user/mapper, are more like a the chair all dissassembled in a flatpack. Yes it's still a chair, but it's in pieces and not ready for use the way you're used to.

What I still can't understand is why you look at 12 files in a ZIP in a totally different way to 12 lumps in a WAD.

Why should users care anyway? It's not like this affects them (your opinion Graf).

As a developer Graf, if you don't care about this then WHY are you trying so hard to convince me that black is white when you know better?

To be honest this "discussion" has lost all meaning. Since no one seems to be interested in maintaining an informed, inteligent discussion then what is the point of continuing this any further?

I don't know what the fuss is all about, really. Here's how it is, DaniJ. I'm a modder, as in, mapping/texturing/music/ect. and I think it's best to stick with what works. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Instead of making it so nobody uses wads anymore, try to integrated them into the zip idea.

Maps are a collection of files, true, but doing what you are trying to do is the same as trying to run an uncompiled program from a bunch of code files. It's senseless.

I do, however, like the ability to just zip up graphics and such into zips, but why make it so overorganized to the point of tediousness?

But we can't seem to come to terms on the discussion, so I say let bygones be bygones.

What I can't figure out is why we keep mentioning XWE when the stuff that needs to support what Danij is talking about are MAP editors? Treating a map like 12 lumps inside a ZIP isn't going to benefit anyone until some sort of Map editor like Doom Builder, SLADE, or DeePsea supports it.

What Danij should be doing is pestering the people who maintain those map editors rather than trying to sell the concept to the end-user. I could care less about THINGS patches, really.

I'm not trying to sell it to anyone. I was asked to explain the design and I did.

As for map editors supporting it - thats up to them. I've sent a mail to CodeImp about ZIP support but he never got back to me...

I might have to do it myself.

After explaining the design you were challenged to explain how it was useful (or, in other words, sell it). Perhaps that wasn't too smart on their end, since it's not them that need to understand it anyway. Yeah, well, I can't think of too many people who will take advantage of it if it's not supported by the map editors. In the meantime, shoot off mails to SlayeR and DeeP as well, since they're actively maintaining their builders SLADE and DeePsea.

First person to tell me what this has to do with MP3's in ZDoom wads gets a prize.

First person to tell me what this has to do with MP3's in ZDoom wads gets a prize.

Yno, that's just what I was thinking

Why don't one of you just agree with one another? that way we can get back to what the topic was about in the first place .