Welcome to ZDF!

wildweasel wrote:Everybody is telling me "edit it" and not giving me any specifics.

torridGristle wrote:tell players to toughen up

:V

EDIT: upon remembering how bad the vore was in this mod...

One possibility is to reduce the damage without changing any behaviour, making them a constant source of health loss.

Another is to make them attack a lot less often, possibly including a (faster?) non-homing version of the voreball that is more likely to appear (basically making it more like a revenant).

Another is to reduce their hitpoints and make them all cover-shooter glass-ninja.

Some combination of any or all of them is also possible.

If there's gonna be a Vore in there, let it be as close to vanilla as possible but tweak the homing. I got chased with 1 health across a whole map beacuse it navigates really good tbh

torridGristle wrote:

wildweasel wrote:As always, I am open to useful suggestions.

Revert Vore and tell players to toughen up or loosen player tracking on the projectiles. I've had their projectiles make near 90 degree turns around corners coming after me.

This is what I'd suggest as well, the tracking is, in my opinion, totally ludicrous. I have seen the projectiles make 90 degree turns, being able to shoot the projectiles down does help, but I still think the tracking could be toned down a bit, or maybe reduce projectile damage a bit.

> it seems I cannot please anybody.
Well I don't think anybody would scream if you used 'vanilla Revenant rocket' behavior. It is already familiar to players, and stays balanced with the enemy which is overall slower but (I think) more resilient than what it replaces.
If you feel it's too lazy, well then experiment with straight projectile speeds/power/number, find one combination that feels good and doesn't duplicate another enemy's.

Vigilante wrote:If you feel it's too lazy, well then experiment with straight projectile speeds/power/number, find one combination that feels good and doesn't duplicate another enemy's.

yup, that's what i said before. among with shootable ACTOR, it could be fine medicine.

and again;

Captain J wrote:and recommanded values for example, i settled it's speed into 10(and fastspeed is 15.) and set damage into 17. and i edited vore's melee attack either. also it's movement too, setting every frame's speed 7 into 5, and now it's working faster and better.

also you don't need to follow my edited numbers. just lower 'em yourself freely for what is best setting numbers for you.

I kinda want to say that I happen to like the Vore - it gives a nice throwback to Ye Olden Days of Quake. On top of that, the voreballs SHOULD navigate well - I remember running around an entire Quake map looking for health just so I'd survive the one following me. It's an unusual and well-made replacement for the Revenant, and one I think shouldn't change.

wildweasel wrote:Here's the thing, though: the Vore has been something of a sour note for a load of people. I've received countless complaints about the Vore every time a new build is released, and it seems I cannot please anybody. The most constant suggestion I get is "remove the Vore entirely" - which I kind of don't want to do, because there are no other candidates for a Revenant-styled replacement that are actually any good.

Vores piss me off too, but i'll tell you WHY they piss me off, and maybe you can rebalance it (not just on my opinion of course)

1.) they have a missile with a mind of its own.
the is no escaping it really, its impending death. mixed with everything else, its quite a bit worse than the original revenant missile.

2.) they're completely ranged, so the missile has to be diabolical
they spam missiles at close range and its insta death. its the only thing they can do, but by design you have to make it a good attack because they're slow and they have no melee.

3.) they're slow, and have no melee, instead just chucking insta-death balls.
the revenant was a pain in the ass because they would fire homing rockets, then punch you down when you hid around a corner to escape. this vore just launches stuff whenever it sees you, so its nothing like the revenant. its like fighting a homing missile turret.

i believe if you made vores act a little more like revenants that they wouldn't be such a pain. i would like to see other magics from them, and a less lethal version of their projectile, mabey faster but not as easy to follow.

Non vore related:

damage was 10 instead of 8 for pump fire sequence
damage for ssg was 6 when i looked, and double fire had same accuracy and whatnot
pistol seemed pretty low damage
chaingun seemed a little weak

i've made my own tweaks and changed them myself, but theres some feedback.

oh, and on the pistol dilemma:

i would actually like silencers AND twin pistols i might be able to whip up some sprites for it, although i'd just keep em both centered and close to eachother if you can get away with it. let me know, i'm doing other work to give me inspiration in my own project.

Remember the original Revenant has 2 weaknesses that provide extra ways of fighting them :
1) his melee animation is very expressive -> You can close to melee range, dodge, repeat - this denies them from firing rockets.
2) missiles have small turn angle and average speed -> You can sidestep to dodge, as long as you run toward the revenant at the same time (missile overshoots you). It's very unique because you are protected/rewarded for going towards the source of danger.
These two tactics are part of the interest, and monster replacements that lose them and don't provide others... cannot be as interesting.

non-vore-related too : Isn't there a damage imbalance between the two shotguns ? I feel an Archvile survives easily two twin-barrel shots at point-blank range, while 3 shells of shotgun kill it. This makes me prefer the single-barrel even for melee, reloading is more tricky but the kills seem faster and I actually save ammo.

Or you can just leave the Vore the way she is now and let those who don't like it remove her files with 7-zip.

the fact that you can "kill" the vore's projectile is a pretty big thing to remember. I wondered for awhile if it would be possible to have destroyable projectiles. It's the nerf the Vore always needed. It was simply too deadly without the killable projectiles. If anything, I think the Lost Soul's variant has a melee attack that is alittle too powerful. It can take upwards of 40 points off your health in a single hit. And it can beat the shit out of you fairly quickly too. But otherwise, this update has more than given me a reason to come back to it. All of the weapons are fun to use, they all have a nice meaty punch to them and it feels proper Vanilla Doom too. I'm just curious about what will replace the Cyberdemon and Mastermind...

looks like a you got a two choices to keep your vore, wildweasel.

one, make projectile dies. maybe it's projectile is still has lot's of problems, but i'm pretty sure it's gonna be all fine if you have a heavy weaponry for against them. but these's got a bad things either. if you met a losta vores and it's projectiles, tottaly impossible to destory 'em all but if you have a chaingun with maximum ammos. if you got surround by them, you're just nothing but a dead meat. so my medicine is just outsmart them til those projectile hordes destoryed together.

two. if you're busy or boring to hear that, don't ignore 'em all or give up. you have a number decreasing. just open slade just like what you always did and decrease the it's damage and speed. nothing will gonna make a trouble, also it's a easy fix. but still if damage or speed has decreased little bit, nothing's gonna change. once again, if you want a know what's the perfect decreased numbers what i created for us, i settled it's speed into 10 and damage is 17. and i'm not imposing it much, just decrease it til if that's fine to your eyes and fingers.

also combining each of them would be fine, though. unless if game is now getting easy, and speed the vore up and add it's melee damage is tottaly recommanded.

USSRBear wrote:I'm just curious about what will replace the Cyberdemon and Mastermind...

Personally, I use to replace the Cyberdemon with this guy. Still searching for a good Mastermind.

Why is it so hard to "survive, adapt, and overcome"? I mean you can shoot down his missiles now, the Vore's been nerfed to the point of absurdity, but there continues to be an almost comedic outcry to nerf it further. Is there an in-joke I'm not getting? It's not a Revanent, just like the weapons you're wielding aren't vanilla Doom weapons. Adjust your strategy, I'm an awful Doom player and I haven't had any problems with the Vore.

I still think that having the ability to shoot the Vore's projectile's down is not such a good idea to balance the monster. Also, it should not be treated as a Revenant-replacement (especially considering its projectile's unique behavior). Just because the monster fires seeking projectiles, doesn't automatically puts it there.

Now, I have some kind of idea, but I need to do some experimenting to see if I can pull it off. I'll get back to you later on it.

Marty Kirra wrote:Why is it so hard to "survive, adapt, and overcome"? I mean you can shoot down his missiles now, the Vore's been nerfed to the point of absurdity, but there continues to be an almost comedic outcry to nerf it further. Is there an in-joke I'm not getting? It's not a Revanent, just like the weapons you're wielding aren't vanilla Doom weapons. Adjust your strategy, I'm an awful Doom player and I haven't had any problems with the Vore.

I'm not complaining anymore, since I just find out you can remove her by removing some files in the pk3.
But I have "survived, adapted and overcomed" the Vore now so I'm pleased with her as she is atm.
Yes, the Vore is a female.