ZDoom

There's no reason not to include the scripts along with a WAD. A messy script is a better learning tool (if even just for "this is how not to do that" ) than no script at all.

Whee a taste of things to come.

As for the wad, it still sucks, scrap it and start over again. Repeat until it stops making baby Jesus cry.

HotWax: The opposite works as well; for what reason should an author be forced to give out his ACS scripts? He is under no licesnse, or agreement that says he must give out his scripts, indeed hes not doing anything wrong at all, other than not satisfying your curiosity, which really isn't wrong at all.

But a community lives from sharing ideas, not from hiding them.

Then tell me Graf Zahl, do you share every idea you get? That is, indeed, what you are asking AgentSpork to do in this case. Not only that but you are threatening to blatantly steal his ideas. Even so, you try to push the opinion that he might be wrong? That is rather hypocritical do not you think?

First off, where you get off saying that Graf is asking for "every idea" that AgentSpork has ever had I'll never know.

Second, what's hypocritical is using an opensource game to create a level and then not distributing the creation's source.

No, it's not a requirement. However it is widely regarded as common courtesy. Spork probably learned ACS in part like the rest of us did -- by studying other ACS scripts. It would be appreciated by others if he would share his work as well, thus allowing future ACS programmers to learn from his code in turn.

HotWax wrote:First off, where you get off saying that Graf is asking for "every idea" that AgentSpork has ever had I'll never know.

Why, Graf gets the "code" for the maps, all the information in special lumps, and everything else but the ACS data automatically. Is it so important that he have absolutely everything?

HotWax wrote:Second, what's hypocritical is using an opensource game to create a level and then not distributing the creation's source.

I would consider that to be a relevant statement, if this were a derivative work of the program ZDoom, and not content for the program. However it is content, and as such falls under no such requirement to be made freely available. If that logic were correct, then the Doom IWAD data files should indeed be open.

HotWax wrote:No, it's not a requirement. However it is widely regarded as common courtesy. Spork probably learned ACS in part like the rest of us did -- by studying other ACS scripts. It would be appreciated by others if he would share his work as well, thus allowing future ACS programmers to learn from his code in turn.

I have but one question. Widely regarded by whom? Certainly not people like myself and AgentSpork.

WAIT A MINUTE WAXXY. Not taking sides here but who's the one who removed the SCRIPTS lump from CTC and my ice platform level a while back?

AgentSpork doesn't share his scripts, because then he'd have to kill you. (If reading them doesn't kill you first).

Qi Len wrote: I would consider that to be a relevant statement, if this were a derivative work of the program ZDoom, and not content for the program. However it is content, and as such falls under no such requirement to be made freely available. If that logic were correct, then the Doom IWAD data files should indeed be open.

Correct. But:

HotWax wrote:No, it's not a requirement. However it is widely regarded as common courtesy.

Cutmanmike wrote:WAIT A MINUTE WAXXY. Not taking sides here but who's the one who removed the SCRIPTS lump from CTC and my ice platform level a while back?

I thought about mentioning those, but didn't want them to become the focus of the discussion.

But yes, I did remove those scripts. As a result both are now lost, even to me. That's another hazard of making that mistake. My reasons at the time were: 1) In the case of the platform level I didn't want all the random quotes easily available -- you'd have to play the level awhile to see them all, and 2) CTC was in the beta stage and I didn't want people taking it and making their own version before we could get ours properly out. However, both of these reasons I now realize were silly. In the case of the platform map, the strings could have easily been extracted anyway, and in the case of CTC, nobody else was interested enough to "steal" the code and make their own version.

Graf Zahl: I see you completely and conveniently missed my question under that, so I shall restate it.

By whom is it widely regarded to be common courtesy? Please do not post any nonsense like "these forums," which is obviously untrue, as AgentSpork and I are both at these forums, and most likely others who do not side with this opinion, or "most of this forum" which is relative and quite easily misconstrued to fit the needs of the person making the statement

HotWax: Then in this case it is a risk to AgentSpork alone, and thus should be his decision to make, without him being heckled or persuaded to do differently.

ctc needs more love

Qi Len wrote:I see you completely and conveniently missed my question under that, so I shall restate it.

By whom is it widely regarded to be common courtesy? Please do not post any nonsense like "these forums," which is obviously untrue, as AgentSpork and I are both at these forums, and most likely others who do not side with this opinion, or "most of this forum" which is relative and quite easily misconstrued to fit the needs of the person making the statement

By the OpenSource community in general, of which I consider ZDoom to be a member.

But yes, the opinion has been expressed in the past by several members of this forum, and I should point out that Graf and myself are both as much members of this forum as yourself and Spork.

The bottom line here is this is a pointless argument (as most on the Internet are). If Spork doesn't want to release his code, he is under no obligation to do so, however Graf, myself, and others in the community would both appreciate and benefit from him doing so. The ultimate decision is of course up to him, and no one has stated otherwise.

Qi Len wrote:By whom is it widely regarded to be common courtesy?

Sharing is generally considered common courtesy, and I believe this falls under that.
(By generally, I mean people with morals and all those happy good qualities few people seem to have these days).

Then again, I consider sharing common courtesy even though I'm not exactly the sharing type. People don't need a good reason to not share their uncompiled scripts, but that doesn't stop it being common courtesy.