Hideous Destructor 4.10.0b

[Matt]

"see"

[Silentdarkness12]

"see"

TRACERS

[Big C]

<misplaced Overwatch reference goes here>

[Matt]

Cheers, luv, the cavalry's queer!

no tracer rounds for any snipers though as that seems to not make any sense in the least... if they're in they'd basically be the undeadjackbootmen with like 1 Boss shot for every 2-3 bursts, an extended target range and a stronger melee attack.

[Big C]

Why a stronger melee? Wouldn't a sniper NOT want to use their delicate sniper rifle as a crude, rude club?

EDIT: Hay Vae, will the advent of ZScript mean anything for HD?

[Silentdarkness12]

Perhaps not, Vaecrius, but it would make sense from a game design perspective. A lot of games with sniper enemies put tracer rounds for them so you can tell the general direction of what's killing you.

[Matt]

Big C: Forgot scopes were a thing. Shittier melee then!

SD: "game design"

[Big C]

@SD12:

Hideous Destructor is not the kind of mod that hands you hints.

[Silentdarkness12]

And yet, the lack of hints is exactly why Vaecrius isn't putting this in, Big C.

[Josh771]

It's very plain why Vaecrius hesitates to add snipers, and I think I understand and relate to his position.

He does not wish to bend "reality" to fit some kind of "game design." If possible, I think HD aims to give the player a worthy set of abilities and mounts deadly opposition that has a heavy basis in reality. But real life does pose the occasional "no-win" situation, and a dead-eye sniper taking shots from a mile off is just one such situation.

So, how to solve the dilemma? Not by diluting the experience for the sake of artificial balance; that's not what HD is about. There is no contradiction in denying yourself a great deal of game design approach while still hesitating to add something that, in its best realistic presentation, might throw the balance too far off.

I don't intend to speak for Vaecrius, but I just felt the need to point out the very different formula HD follows. I tried to make suggestions for a potential sniper enemy that would give the player better odds by giving the sniper certain imperfections, but I would not suggest - for instance - that the sniper use tracer rounds. That suggestion fits realism-wise with making the snipers wear bright reflective vests and wave flashlights around.

We should only ever try to artificially balance the game with the elements whose basis are in fantasy, rather than in reality. Zombie riflemen aren't real, but sniper rifles and the appropriate operation thereof are very much real. Let's suggest that the zombies aren't very good at sniping before we suggest that the UAC thinks sniper rifles should all be loaded with tracer rounds. And if the fantasy won't give enough to make reality balanced, then snipers are right out. I respect the developer's judgment and right to veto anyone's suggestion in contradiction to his vision - even if we might think at times that he's being "inconsistent" or "illogical." We all have different takes. And I didn't mean to go on like that, but there you have it.

[Silentdarkness12]

Hey, I was just bringing up tracer rounds as a counter-point to Vaecrius complaining about players not knowing what killed them.

If he thinks that's dumb, then don't put it in. Fine. But deciding against snipers feels like a swing and a miss.

The idea of them being somewhat inaccurate is a good one, though. Perhaps give them an aim differential similar to the chaingunner? So, in other words, inaccurate enough at long range that there's a fair chance they'll miss, but at medium range, not so much?....

[Wolfbrf]

Yes, this mode is designed to be hard.
About monsters, i think, all need a weak poin(prevent overpowerd monsters), the game become fair, and the player can feel better making strategy to kill them.

About snipers, few ways can help: tracers(monsters games), laser sight(half life2), or a small light reflex on scope(battlefield like). But nothing too long(1 or 2 secs after shoot).

Doind tests with another mod, the game become unfair in maps with a lot of invisible snipers(camouflage, invisible enemies..), the alert suystem can help on balance.
Nice work doing this mode, one of the best of zdoom. Remind me" hidden and dangerous deluxe"

[Somagu]

Devil's advocate, then. Give the Boss a non-scoped variant and give them a teeny tiny chance to replace stormtroopers, like SMG troopers do. The scoped variant could be a backpack/rare drop/spawn drop only, and that would also give you a good excuse to let the rifle jam a lot and be inaccurate as hell.

Note, I don't actually support this idea and I don't want boss rifles anywhere near the grubby mitts of any zombies. But I would like this implementation better than being sniped across the map without the silly compromise of tracer rounds.

[Matt]

To qualify Sid's comment, my main reason for hesitating is just the extra work needed (though another palette swap of the zombieman is looking more and more appealing...) if I were to do this they would definitely be replacing some chaingunners and/or revenants and arachnotrons, not zombies or shotgunguys, since they're the main enemies you typically find in sniper positions.

[Silentdarkness12]

Eh.....fair enough. I guess that makes logic.

Is there anything people could do to help it along? : P