[WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Projects that alter game functions but do not include new maps belong here.
Forum rules
The Projects forums are ONLY for YOUR PROJECTS! If you are asking questions about a project, either find that project's thread, or start a thread in the General section instead.

Got a cool project idea but nothing else? Put it in the project ideas thread instead!

Projects for any Doom-based engine (especially 3DGE) are perfectly acceptable here too.

Please read the full rules for more details.

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Captain J » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:15 am

sorry for another bump, here's the plenty of questions;

first. does this version is a final? haven't you saw any glitches for updating more futher?

second. do you have any mind about adding a new few monsters or revamp some older sprites? just like a replacing cyber baron into cyber brute i was give you for your wolfenstein mod for a example.

third. i just combined that randomizer wad with mutiny wad, and it worked perfectly...well it takes some times, though. so why don't you combining those wads together? or that was intensional?

if first question is true, keep your working. let my chindhood grow! :D
User avatar
Captain J
'OH YE'
 
 
 
Joined: 02 Oct 2012
Location: Secret Chamber
Discord: DiscussJ#3128

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby thonglover » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:48 pm

Would love to play this! :D
User avatar
thonglover
 
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Location: Planet WEEEEEBOOOPS

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Captain J » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:54 am

Welp, too many times has been passed and i need to post this my version of your wad...so, sorry about that. anyway, my version contains some fair fixes and decent additional sounds and replacements. ALSO, added and replaced some sprites specially cybruiser replace ment as well.
Spoiler: and most important;
that's all what else i can say. and credits that includes origin of the new sound replacements are in this wad. i'll appreciate if you're using my scripts also sounds and sprites replacements.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/wk3t8 ... %20v.3.zip

oh, also talking about new improvements, adding a incendiary grenade, minigun, new items and healable berserk pack could be help, though.
anyway, excuse me and thanks for your cooperation! :D
User avatar
Captain J
'OH YE'
 
 
 
Joined: 02 Oct 2012
Location: Secret Chamber
Discord: DiscussJ#3128

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Endless123 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:39 am

Awesome mod my friend :D Really fun to play !!

I'd like to make a request ... would it be possible to do this :

1 - make the background of the HUD transparent

2 - recolor the numbers on the HUD to blue or cyan

3 - recolor the words "ARMOR, HEALTH and AMMO" to white or cyan

You guessed it i like blue lol. If you don't have the time to make those modifications please tell me which files i have to modify and what to modify.

Thanks in advance :D
Endless123
 
Joined: 28 Aug 2013

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Untitled » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:46 am

Nice wad with lots of cool concepts, but three things really erk me, one minor, one medium, and one major:

1. Minor: the fact the targeter is a really powerful item is cool, but an identical name+sprite to a useless item is not a good way to signify importance. Once you know it, it's pretty nice (though the fact it replaces megaspheres makes me cringe as it means that slaughter maps where megaspheres are the only form of health are now doomed, but that's a moot point because of later).

2. Medium: That nerf to the SSG. While I understand that the SSG was disproportionally powerful in Doom, nerfing it's damage to ~150 in addition to making it fire slower makes it near-useless instead of "powerful but not-the-only-weapon-you'll-use". It's still a primary weapon that basically every doom map maker ever expects you to rely upon, meaning several maps are kind of broked.

3. Major: So I generally test wads by playing Scythe II, the Speed of Doom, then Deus Vult II, because those wads are awesome with lots of variety in the maps (though the slaughter maps from those three, like DV II Map 23 get the most notoriety), and started.

And I get shredded by hitscans is Scythe II map 30.

So I try again on several selected SoD maps, and either get shredded by hitscans, or run out of ammo.

So I try again with "maybe it's just the map", with DV II Map 21 to Map 23, since amazing hell episode.
And have ammo issues (though not as major) and shredded by hitscans in map 21, run out of ammo in map 22 (though admittedly that's a bit of a tyson map anyway so it might be me), and get shredded by hitscans in map 23 again.

...

I don't like hitscans for enemies. They're literally impossible to dodge, and for some reason the cannon fodder has more health than the original hitscanners, meaning you're likely to run out of ammo in maps that are zombie spam maps (since the ammo they drop isn't as sufficient to kill everything).
But that's the small issue. A lot of monster replacement wads have that issue with zombie ammo drops. The issue is...
Well, try playing any chaotic open-field-battle map, and suddenly it's a horrid nightmare because it's an open warfare type map where cover is limited.

TerminusEst13 puts it best: http://terminusest13.tumblr.com/post/68 ... aying-this

and then Ijon Tichy comes in and gives a rather brutal beatdown to it. While I'm not as extreme as he is (this might seem offensive to some), he does summarize the wads faults: http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3606

EDIT: oh wait I found a fourth thing. Why is there no infighting? that could solve the last problem if the hitscanners could annoy hitscanners. Also, many maps (such as map 08 of Doom 2) have infighting as a major gimmick, and sometimes, it's completely necessary to have monster infighting just to win the level! (See: many, many, chaingunner traps, amd many, many, many slaughter maps.)
Untitled
 
Joined: 18 Apr 2013

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Ethril » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:59 am

Untitled wrote:Why is there no infighting?

You're up against a (relatively) intelligent human army. They're not bloodthirsty demons that'll turn on eachother at the drop of a hat. (They're still bloodthirsty, mind you, but they're less indiscriminate about it.)
It kind of screws with the balance, but it makes sense for story purposes.
User avatar
Ethril
F1
 
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Guidance Gate

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Untitled » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:11 am

Good point made in story but

it /really/ can bugger up some maps.

Really mutiny feels like it needs it's own mapset

Because maps like strife's (though I never played strife, I've only watched a couple videos here and there) might work, if only because strife is also filled with hitscanners.

EDIT: a reply in less than 15 minutes? Wow. That was fast.
Untitled
 
Joined: 18 Apr 2013

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Captain J » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:19 pm

lot's of damage and accuracy is the problem. and that's how i just fixed every hitscan enemies' missile frame; into more fair and less damages and accuracies. but unfortunately, i didn't nerfed the projectile damages, though. and that's how my version is still harder to play.

if woolie wool is wake up and watching this thread, i hope he would fix this.
User avatar
Captain J
'OH YE'
 
 
 
Joined: 02 Oct 2012
Location: Secret Chamber
Discord: DiscussJ#3128

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Woolie Wool » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:44 pm

Well for anyone expecting ww-nazis tracers in Mutiny, I'm going to have to disappoint you and say no. Part of Mutiny's overall design is that weapons should work more or less like they do in Doom, since it's Doom with a perspective change. Keep in mind that I played Wolfenstein before I played Doom, where all the enemies are hitscan, so I guess I'm just more used to dealing with hitscans. Also I don't play slaughter maps because I hate them, so I never intended Mutiny to be balanced with things like Speed of Doom or Deus Vult II. Try playing maps with smaller-scale architecture and more traditional gameplay like the Darkening series. You might be surprised at how easily you can exploit the more confined architecture in such maps to break up groups of enemies and be able to hit them before they hit you.

Also, when in doubt, retreat, just like in Wolfenstein.

Untitled wrote:Really mutiny feels like it needs it's own mapset

It was originally supposed to have one and I even wrote down an outline for all the hubs would work and all the keys and macguffins needed but I really don't enjoy Doom mapping that much and I think I would enjoy making a megawad even less.
User avatar
Woolie Wool
Call Apogee Say "Snappity!"
 
Joined: 15 Dec 2003

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby -Ghost- » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:17 pm

I actually don't have a problem with the hitscanners, I just feel like the super shotgun needs a big buff. Either it should fire slowly as it does now but do a lot more damage, or fire normally with the damage it has now. I'm not sure why it's so weak.
User avatar
-Ghost-
 
Joined: 08 Sep 2010

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Woolie Wool » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:27 pm

now general eduardo have a fair and decent attacks

He's always had fair attacks. He's not really all that difficult to kill if you know what you're doing.
User avatar
Woolie Wool
Call Apogee Say "Snappity!"
 
Joined: 15 Dec 2003

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Untitled » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:38 pm

Woolie Wool wrote:It was originally supposed to have one and I even wrote down an outline for all the hubs would work and all the keys and macguffins needed but I really don't enjoy Doom mapping that much and I think I would enjoy making a megawad even less.


That's really the kind of vibe you get with wads that drastically change how things play.

I use slaughter maps as means of finding wad imbalances because generally speaking, if a wad has a fault with monsters, adding more monsters exposes the fault better.

But it doesn't need to be slaughtermaps, a good chunk of TNT Evilution AND Plutonia Experiment are doomed simply because the maps are open-space. Mods that rely on maps specifically tailoring to the mods need...aren't good mod making. Your mod should be perfectly playable on the core DOOM 2 IWADS (Doom 2, Plutonia, TNT Evilution).

Icon of sin maps are particularly egregious here, as the almost never provide cover.

Well, I provided Screenshot evidence of balance issues which aren't slaughtermaps. These are from Vanilla TNT Evilution (Well, using Zandronum, but still) + Mutiny + Mutiny Random Spawner, with problems explained.
Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:
Untitled
 
Joined: 18 Apr 2013

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Captain J » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:07 pm

ALSO, slower missile attacks could be help too.

Woolie Wool wrote:He's always had fair attacks. He's not really all that difficult to kill if you know what you're doing.
but his losta healths also dem FIREBOMBs always gets me, though.

EDIT:
also i found some glitches out from your wad, woolie. when i got gibbed apart, my head; bloodyskull is keep rolling around to the wall or pit after the bouncing. and it keeps rolling around even walls never stop it, keeps rolling until outta the map even gibbing animation is over.

and in my version's update, i just got fixed it up. and revamped helmetless pistol marine's death and pdw officer's death. also included forgotton gib sprites; ZOMBIEMANHEAD, SHOTGUYHEAD, SHOTGUYARM left one and right one. and again, you can rip everything in my version. and if you need something else for this wad or other wad, just call me.
https://www.mediafire.com/?wk3t83eq6d6d402

Spoiler: and here's for an example about matter of sizes;
User avatar
Captain J
'OH YE'
 
 
 
Joined: 02 Oct 2012
Location: Secret Chamber
Discord: DiscussJ#3128

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby Untitled » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:22 pm

Woolie Wool wrote:Keep in mind that I played Wolfenstein before I played Doom, where all the enemies are hitscan, so I guess I'm just more used to dealing with hitscans.
The thing is, the hitscans in Wolfenstein weren't nearly as bad as the ones in here. I'll quote terminus' tumblr:
TerminusEst13 wrote:Well, in that case, Wolfenstein 3D also had a very unique feature that not a lot of other games have, a wonderful property known as “damage dropoff”.
TerminusEst13 wrote:See, the way Wolfenstein did damage wasn’t just “get shot, get hit, take damage”, the bullets were made out of bullshittium and were affected by distance. The farther the distance the target was, the lower their damage and hitchance. If you stand right next to a Nazi, you’re going to get shredded because his bullets will all hit and they will all do oh-my-car levels of damage. If you stand on the other end of the hallway, the bullets not only will rarely hit you but even if they do you’re looking at maybe a fraction of damage.
TerminusEst13 wrote:Wolfenstein’s maps, for the most part, were long and wide open corridors, so there was often plenty of room to distance yourself so that you could “avoid” Nazi fire while returning it. Even if you opened up a door and saw a Nazi right there, there was always time to open fire right away and drill them rather than getting shredded for half your life.

That's the big thing. In Wolfenstein, you could always "avoid" everything if you knew what to do. You can't here. Any kind of open battlefield-Hell, even basic TNT Evilution, an IWAD has balance issues with this thing.

Woolie Wool wrote:Also, when in doubt, retreat, just like in Wolfenstein.

Ok, now do it in a map which doesn't have anywhere to retreat to. For instance, refer to Map 20 of TNT. I'm getting murdered in the first room. Or better yet, the author has a well choreographed Skullkey trap, which seals off the room upon getting the key. Where exactly do I run to?

Really, this is almost as bad as Blood. Blood, for the uneducated, was a Build Engine game alongside Duke Nukem 3D. Well, it suffered from hitscan cultists, and really, those cultists ruined it for both me and Terminus. I can't play having to deal with that many hitscanners, and to make it worse, they had dynamite, meaning they could flush you out no matter what. Plus, they had super-fast reflexes meaning taking damage was unavoidable.

This isn't fun.

TL;DR: Doom really cannot handle hitscan spam, unless you severely nerf the hitscanners to Wolfenstein levels of weakness, which means being able to hide from them even when they see you.

Let's see. Traps. Traps of any sort are near impossible now. You know, stuff like "Grab-Key-Room-Shuts-Monsters-Teleport" traps, since you simply can't position yourself to escape them-traps are set up in that fashion to force you into a position where dodging is required. This is why the demon replacements doing damage can really be a bad thing; in traps that surround you with them, the pinkies/dogs go from "threatening" to "absurdly lethal death trap".

The nerf to the SSG was too much. It's nigh-unusable now. Fires too slowly, and does too little damage. Why is this such a big issue? Because modern map authors know how powerful the SSG is and thus balances maps to it's tier of firepower. That's the things most good mods do; even if you don't get the SSG, you must have a weapon capable of filling the power gap.

Why do the mancubi replacements have 1000 health? Given that the most common weapon you're supposed to use against them is -surpise- the SSG, which now goes from taking 6-8 shells to kill one to taking 14 shells to kill one. This really starts eating your ammo, which is one of the big problems I have: why are zombie ammo drops inconsistent now? The zombieman, shotgunguy, and chaingunguy should have 100% chance of ammo drop, everything else optional, because again, maps are balanced around this.

EDIT: Also, the hitler ghosts shot fireballs

TL;DR: you can't try to totally transform Doom simply because map authors started balancing around Doom, and trying to change too much ruins that balance
Last edited by Untitled on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Untitled
 
Joined: 18 Apr 2013

Re: [WIP]Mutiny v3 - Week 3 (Mars War)

Postby -Ghost- » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:15 pm

Actually, damage drop-off from distance sounds like a good idea for the hitscanners; if it's doable I think it would balance things out okay for the most part.
User avatar
-Ghost-
 
Joined: 08 Sep 2010

PreviousNext

Return to Gameplay Mods

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Awario [RSS], Kneight, OMAE WA, Simple Pie [RSS], Xim and 18 guests