[WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! Cocky'n...rawket launchers!

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Major Cooke
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!!

Post by Major Cooke »

Ryan Cordell wrote:Some are more than willing to crank out a far higher quality mod..
*raises hand* I'm all here! Hence why it's taking a while, but it goes to show what you've learned from what one has made in the past :)
CaptainToenail wrote:I don't see why a weapon mod should contain maps. If there's a megawad I want to play again, it won't be as fun second time round so I use a weapon modifier to freshen things up. If you add maps it's no longer a weapon mod, but a 'mini-TC', and it may not be as compatible to run alongside other maps. e.g. if you run NeoDoom with Alien Vendetta there could be problems.
QFT.
CaptainToenail wrote:Suggesting that people who like to make weapon mods are lazy and less talented because they don't make maps too is quite insulting IMO.
I don't take it as an insult usually. Their just suggestions after all, though I do clearly see where you're coming from.

No but seriously, I don't make maps because:
  • I usually don't finish them
  • They're inconsistent and ugly
  • I can't ever get balance properly laid out

    What I do make maps for:
    • Testing purposes
    • Dynamic effect showcasing (testing new special effects, etc)
    • Recording and demonstration
I've made six maps so far, one of them being an unofficial expansion to Shtbag's Happy Time Circus 2 (with his permission, and its still a wip) and let me tell you, finding things to fix over and over again like I did when it came to pack-ratting AEoD before release time was an insane nightmare. I keep getting that feeling nothing's going to be right when I'm finished testing it out.

Unfortunately I have to cut this post a little short (yeah, right) due to an urgent appointment but I'll finish this up later.
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SoulCrow
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!!

Post by SoulCrow »

Grymmoire wrote:Somewhere there's a line, when the quality of any mod crosses the line (in a bad way), then it just can't be/shouldn't be ignored.
Why not? What's the worst that could happen? Is this mod going to become sentient and start attacking people in real life? Is it going to become viral and start infecting/corrupting (again a matter of one's personal viewpoint) other mods?

Personally, I see this community as this - a bunch of mostly unrelated people just working on something in their own free time (usually when they're bored), mostly to satisfy themselves. If people like their mod? Great. If not? Oh well, could really care less. I don't see any sort of "line" - people make what they want to make. If people keep churning out 1994 WADs then good for them - it doesn't personally affect me or how I spend my own free time. I certainly don't feel that it is my god given duty to start lambasting the author about their work and saying how they have defiled my computer with their filth (largely because I haven't downloaded their work in the first place). I don't download many mods at all anymore, and even if I thought "well that level sucked" I move on and do something else. So what?

I agree with CaptainToenail about levels being present in gameplay modifiers. Back when I really started downloading Doom mods (having come across WolfenDoom), I thought wouldn't it be neat to play with Wolfenstein weapons and Wolfenstein enemies in the regular Doom levels? If you loaded Doom II up with Operation: Eisenmann or something similar, most Doom II levels would be unaffected but then there would always be the 13 or so levels of Doom II that I wouldn't be able to play because (of course) those were the levels of the actual mod - how (not-so) annoying. In more recent times, when I randomly feel like playing through a megawad I have already played dozens of times before (like Scythe for example), I think of a gameplay mod I can load up as well to make the experience somewhat refreshing. I don't want to have to start Scythe on level 14 because that would break up the flow of the megawad more so than the gameplay mod itself.

CrystalWolf: I still don't really know where your perspective comes from. I can't think of more than a handful of shuffle or weapon mods to be released in the last few months (that is, in these forums, I don't really follow anything like the /newstuff chronicles). As I mentioned in another topic, even if there are "very few quality maps" being made as of late, can you not draw upon Doom's 17 years of modding history? Must your latest Doom delights be cutting edge contemporary projects? Also why should you worry about an author's personal reasons for making a mod ("People don't think they have to do any better")? Who are you to say what is better qualitatively than something else, and also why does it affect you? I don't profess to start claiming I know what is "better" as in my first point, I just leave people alone to do whatever they want to do. (I know this argument can be turned on its head, why should I care about what you think? The answer is I'm a moderator and need to keep these discussions - which inevitably get very heated opinionated - closely monitored. I also cannot see what you hope to achieve with these discussions so I can't see the point in having them other than a group of users getting really distressed about nothing at all but this is my viewpoint as another user of the forums, not as a moderator.)

I'm not saying that criticism is wrong, but you have stated many times now that you have a problem more with the concept of these mods rather than their actual content. Criticising a mod's content (for example, the Shotgun Rocket Launcher is under-powered) works because then the author is closer to achieving a gameplay balance that is in line with the concept behind the mod (modifiying the gameplay of Doom II). Saying "It'd be pretty great if this came with maps" is completely besides the point of the mod because it completely changes the concept of the mod. To use an unusual analogy, criticising the drawing of a cat saying "the cat's legs are too long and thin" is fine, but saying "no, no, no, that drawing shouldn't be a cat, it should be a dog" is where people are saying "if you don't like it, don't play it".

I realise that I come across as being quite heated opinionated, and that's because I am (and I apologise as such). One of my core philosophies as a human being is to give people the total independence to do whatever they want to do, so this subject rubs me the wrong way right from the start so it is only expected that I get quite passionate about this.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!!

Post by CrystalWolf »

BoldEnglishman wrote:more loaded questions and exaggeration
Against my better judgement, I'm going to respond anyway.

I... Really don't see how it's difficult to see my viewpoint. And nowhere in any of these threads that I've posted in have I suggested, even momentarily, that people should just drop their opinions and start thinking like me on this subject.

As for "why can't I draw upon Doom's 17 year modding history", I don't think you're quite getting the point of my post (or, as before, you're taking what I'm saying out of context); why are so few people mapping? Eventually, all the Scythes and RTC-3057s are going to be played out millions of times by everybody. Why can't there be maps in mods like this? Include the maps in a separate wad. There, problem solved. Both sides are happy.
Saying "It'd be pretty great if this came with maps" is completely besides the point of the mod because it completely changes the concept of the mod.
What makes you think that? I revisit the argument: include the maps in a separate wad. Problem solved, both sides happy.
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esselfortium
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!!

Post by esselfortium »

BoldEnglishman wrote:I realise that I come across as being quite heated opinionated, and that's because I am (and I apologise as such). One of my core philosophies as a human being is to give people the total independence to do whatever they want to do, so this subject rubs me the wrong way right from the start so it is only expected that I get quite passionate about this.

[snip]
Allowing others the independence to criticize things or express opinions differing from yours would probably be a valuable addition to your core philosophy.

Anyway, you sure have written a lot of loaded words and exaggerated mock-arguments about why people shouldn't dislike things that you enjoy I guess
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!!

Post by wildweasel »

Please take it to a new thread. Thank you.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: NOT A POLITICAL DEBATE THREAD!!!

Post by Major Cooke »

WOOHOO! Finally! Got the Powder Cannon finished at last. Man that was a pain in my ass...

Big thanks to DBThanatos for helping me out of a rut too.

Video is on it's way...
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! New Powder Cannon!

Post by Major Cooke »

And it's up! Still might be processing. Check the front page.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! New Powder Cannon!

Post by DoomRater »

That looks friggin hilarious and fun to use.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! New Powder Cannon!

Post by Major Cooke »

Hahaha, thank you! I hope you look forward to playing it as much as I do releasing it.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! New Powder Cannon!

Post by DBThanatos »

There's one thing that I think is worth mentioning.

The explosion look too big for the actual radius of the damage. For those effects, I'd expect it to be dealing damage at 512 units. So, I'd suggest to tone down the effects a bit (not the amount, but the speed at which they're launched), or increase the damage radius.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! New Powder Cannon!

Post by Major Cooke »

I was pondering over that myself. If anything I'll have the flames disappear faster. I prefer the speed of the projectiles as is simply because it looks good. It does indeed deal damage up to 256 right now, but let me check to see if 318 will satisfy the result...

Edit: Oh yeah. 318 units does the job very nicely. 512 is too much.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! New Powder Cannon!

Post by Major Cooke »

Okay, I admit, I'm not liking the idea of the "cultist" shots anymore... Mainly because of the fact that I'm trying to look for a bit more acid-y look rather than just simple recolors of the plasma bolts, and I don't want to break my #1 rule of not adding new sprites. I'm thinking of changing it to perform something else though it'll maintain the same names.

I'm open for ideas/suggestions for new primary/secondary attacks on it.

Remember, the name doesn't have to reflect the actual functions.

Post away.
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! Need ideas. (page 3)

Post by Major Cooke »

Hope you all had a happy new year. I know I did, kinda, except for the poor tree outside of my house that some drunk fucker vandalized by driving over with his/her car...

Anyway, who here thinks they know best about ammunition balance the most? I'm asking because I rarely play without unlimited ammo, just because I hate having to worry about it... Yeah, yeah, some lousy excuse that is for working on AEoD for nearly two years but I'm just that kind of person. Just ask DBThanatos, I'm quite miserable when it comes to balancing ammo with firepower. :P
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! Need ideas. (page 3)

Post by DBThanatos »

Major Cooke wrote:Anyway, who here thinks they know best about ammunition balance the most? I'm asking because I rarely play without unlimited ammo, just because I hate having to worry about it...
Well, here, you have a big problem.

Nobody is going to come and tell you "for every baron, you must have 1 plasma pack and 2 bullet boxes". There's no such thing as a "The perfect manual for balance". What you'll need to be doing is...
worry about it
...and actually...
play without unlimited ammo
...to see how it works.

Really, the only way to get a "balance" is actually testing it. That means, playing an episode, a map that show's pretty much everything (all weapons and all monsters), or even a complete megawad if time allows it. The theory for balance works, sure, but nothing is better than actually testing it under the rules you want to impose.

Two cents, you know already ;)
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Re: [WIP]Disposable Heroes: ANGRY!!! Need ideas. (page 3)

Post by wildweasel »

There are two major tips I can dispense as far as ammo balance. First, the shotgun shell is the single most common type of ammo in Doom, with the 4-pack and 20-pack being among the most common pickup items in the game, so whatever weapon you wish to be the most commonly used, make its ammo replace shotgun shells. The second tip is that many maps, particularly of the slaughter variety, tend to only give weapons and ammo as drops from shotgunners and chaingunners (with shotgunners being the more common of the two) so try to make sure they still drop something useful. If you make them not drop anything, you run the risk of making some maps much harder, because you may be depriving the player of weaponry they need.

That's all I can really help with. The rest is up to you.

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