GZDoom in Development Hell?

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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby deadnail » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:05 am

This is an incredibly sad turn of events for me.

Ever since I got into sourceports I was instantly drawn to ZDoom for it's wonderful, windowed Windows integration and it's excellent software performance. I was never impressed with ZDoomGL. As soon as I discovered GZDoom I came in my pants and blacked out.

I've never traded a single word with you, Graf, and I am not one to second guess any of your motivations. I've held up a self-imposed blackout on Doomworld.com for nearly ten years because of a tantrum I threw and I'm still standing by it. But this isn't about me. This is about the years, years of awesome that GZDoom provided me. I never encountered any performance problems worth speaking of (300+ FPS at 1080p on a 4850 in Vrack2, what in Christ's balls is there to complain about?! I'm hitting 60+ fps on an onboard Radeon 3200 right now).

Thank you for your awesome port man. Sincerely.
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Rachael » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:51 am

Graf Zahl wrote:What are you doing if you get constantly criticized for something you can't change?

Vortex Cortex was offering to help you change it. Admittedly, he was a bit more forward than he should've been about it with some of his opinions on the matter, but I'm pretty sure his attacks were never unprovoked.

Even Carnevil - who is developing a commercial game engine from scratch - agreed with what Vortex Cortex said about GZDoom. Unfortunately for VC though, it is like Gez said - he's been working with a very old version of GZDoom code. But even so, maybe it's just time to realize that hey, this is a dude that does graphics programming for a living, and *gasp* he likes ZDoom! (well, Skulltag, but Skulltag really is still ZDoom with net code in my book anyway) That's a great combination to have in a person, if you ask me.

There's nothing wrong with "doing it wrong" - that's called learning. "Doing it right" should be a goal, though, not something to run away from at the slightest hint of constructive thought.

I do know, and realize though, that the criticism you've received over the years with GZDoom may not have been the brightest point in your life. You're lucky though - at least they are open and honest with you. I always hear whispered rumors under the carpet but never know who says them - but I know they're there and what they say. People fear me too much to be honest with me - and that's something that will never help me improve myself. If I were in your shoes, though, I would have gladly taken up the opportunity to work with Vortex Cortex and tried to make something better than GZDoom. No matter what anyone says, it's still the best GL renderer that ZDoom has ever received, even if it is grossly inefficient and non-standard - by that, it's far less so than ZDoomGL was, that's for damn fucking sure.

Many people - even myself - keep saying you'll never change. Perhaps a few weeks away from GZDoom will help you realize where the faults really were - it's not so much the criticism itself, it's what was fueling the fire. Sure, you might not have been able to do anything about ATI support - but consider also that you blatently stated on a number of occasions that you refused to buy one. That's a double edged sword that says to people - "I don't care about ATI" - whether you actually meant it that way or not.

You might not believe a word I say just because of my involvement with Skulltag - but just remember that it has nothing to do with what I think about GZDoom. Even I do sometimes think they're a little ungrateful in that community for the things you have done - and this goes beyond the GZDoom renderer, as well. About half the changelog messages on ZDoom's SVN have your name on them, after all - if not more.
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Cutmanmike » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:28 am

Repost from DRDTeam:

I wrote:Now to be fair, I kind of feel for Graf in a sense that everyone criticised the fuck out of him on forums. But unfortunately that's what happens, and you need to either ignore it or come up with a solution to everyone's problems which usually impossible. People would just rant about GZDoom or just generally insult Graf for making it not work for so and so, but Graf would always step in and argue and defend his creation usually while insulting others in the process. I know the feeling when so many people are bringing one of your creations down (especially so when it's uncalled for). You want to go in there and stand up for what you've created, you want to just dash in there and say "Yeah well FUCK YOU" but you just can't do that. Not only does it just ruin your reputation as a developer but nothing comes out of it. You just have to suck it up man, and just enjoy maintaining and creating your work, otherwise you'll just ruin it for the others who have no problem with what you're doing.



Graf is only human, like the rest of us. And when most humans get angry and something you want to break things, take stuff away or destroy (in this case delete). Removing all of that stuff was a bit harsh but I can forgive that easily if everything that was removed can be restored.

So please Graf, if you have backups, can we have them back up on DRDTeam? After all we're all doing this for Doom and it's players. Robbing them over a bit of a squabble isn't worth losing all that work :wink:
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Major Cooke » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:11 am

Cutman: Ironically enough, the "Yeah well FUCK YOU" part is what VortexCortex did. To be honest, only he made up a drama fest where it wasn't needed. Graf is far more intelligent than that... He's the one who knows how to slip it in through different words and do so discreetly. It's what makes him so lovable in my opinion, and I think he listens rather very well to people's suggestions/bug reports, but that's just my opinion anyway.

Plus, Vortex is using a super-ancient revision of GZdoom's renderer if I'm correct, so he needs to just go and eat a mancake for all I care.

As for GZdoom, well, it'd be nice if someone could at least keep it updated with the latest Zdoom revisions, thats all I ask. I love the current OpenGL renderer, all I really would need is the latest Zdoom engine updates to the insides of GZdoom and I'm pretty well set.
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby BouncyTEM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:43 am

Major Cooke wrote:As for GZdoom, well, it'd be nice if someone could at least keep it updated with the latest Zdoom revisions, thats all I ask. I love the current OpenGL renderer, all I really would need is the latest Zdoom engine updates to the insides of GZdoom and I'm pretty well set.

Eruanna and Gez are already covering that one.

Still, I was sad to see the recent events, overall. :(
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby scalliano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:45 am

For what it's worth, and if Graf is reading this, I was running GZDoom on an ATI x600 for ages with no problems. That said, every new Catalyst version that came out was fucking up compatibility with something else. I eventually switched back to nVidia and got an 8800GT (not being able to play Bioshock was the straw that broke the camel's back).

Graf, I can understand that you have your reasons for abandoning GZDoom's development (particularly from what I saw on Doomworld last night), but there was no need to go Michael Landy on us all. You're pissed off, and it's understandable, given the flak you've been getting, but I implore you to continue development (like who the fuck am I?).

Take some time out, get your head showered and think it over. Even if you still feel that this is the right move, you've said yourself you'll still be here to help further the software end of things, so you could at least be on hand to give Gez and Eruanna any help they might need.

The ball is in your court, mate.
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby supergoofy » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:55 am

I would like to help with the recovery of the official binaries of Graf's site. I'll try to gather what I have. Tell me though to whom I have to send. Probably someone of the DRD team (maybe Gez ?).

And Graf many thanks for a wonderful doom port. It is my favorite. :)
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Gez » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:57 am

supergoofy wrote:I would like to help with the recovery of the official binaries of Graf's site. I'll try to gather what I have. Tell me though to whom I have to send.

Eruanna.
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby scalliano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:03 am

I have a whack of random old versions kicking about my hard drive too. Only the binaries, mind, no source code. Only question is how to send them. Should I stick them on my DRD space for download?
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Spleen » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:21 am

Gez wrote:
Kappes Buur wrote:The way I see it, it is like a game of war. GZDoom is gaining more and more market share of the dooming community and the rival doom engine developers, seeing their market share dwindle, rely on heaping insult and misinformation upon the GZDoom engine.

No; the other engine developers (entryway, Quasar, SoM, ajapted, DaniJ...) are not the ones behind the attacks. The ones that did attack are a mostly Skulltag players who use Skulltag and have for sole reference of GZDoom the renderer that was present in r127 (latest SVN revision is r769 just so you know). This is especially noticeable in cases where you have the only one of the bunch who claims to actually have some knowledge about OpenGL report bugs in files that do not exist anymore.

So basically they're bitching about bugs in an old version.
Minor nitpick: it's the one in r323, not r127, although your point stands.


Eruanna wrote:People fear me too much to be honest with me - and that's something that will never help me improve myself.
What are you talking about?
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby SoulCrow » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:28 am

Looking over both threads, I basically echo what fraggle said.

All I can say is that really some people need to step back and put things into perspective. It seems that all too often someone has complained and stated that they can run Quake III Arena, Doom III, Unreal Tournament and other more recent games on their computer, and when they try and use GZDoom to run certain, specific doom mods they system can't do it, and then feel the need to tell Graf to go fix it for them. Honestly, nobody is forcing you to use GZDoom, and even if it doesn't work well for you, so fucking what? You can't play a certain level of a certain mod for a 16 year old game? So what? Surely there are other things you can do in your life rather then get stuck up about one little point of contention. I tried to run a game yesterday that worked a couple of years ago and now mysteriously refuses to work. I tried for a couple of hours using different methods in an attempt to get it to work, but I couldn't, and I really wanted to play this particular game. At least I am able to just leave it and go do something else.

Even though obviously I haven't been here as long as other people have, in my tenure as a moderator where I try and read over every thread and keep a check on everything that happens here, there have been far too many times where people start Graf-hating when it may not even have anything to do with the topic of the thread. When I seldom visit the ZDoom/GZDoom/Skulltag IRC channel, there were also times where people would get into a Graf-hating discussion, and I just don't see what any of it achieves.

I guess it just boils down to "the internets is serious business". Regardless of who's to blame, some people just take things far too seriously :|
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby supergoofy » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:37 am

They could also donate ATI cards to Graf, so that he could fix the problems. You cannot demand support for something that is free of charge. Learn C/C++ and fix it yourself. So from this point of view I'm with Graf. But I don't agree with the account deletion for his site (and thus deleting all files), he could have contacted the DRD team.

p.m. sent to Eruanna and Gez with a download link for official binaries etc. that I have (good luck with the file recovery). :)


By the way, not all SkullTag devs are bad, but first create a SVN repository for SkullTag's source and then we can talk about who can create the best OpenGL renderer (this refers only the one SkullTag developer that tried to be smart). If you can create the best OpenGL renderer why don't you?
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Major Cooke » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:40 am

BoldEnglishman wrote:Even though obviously I haven't been here as long as other people have, in my tenure as a moderator where I try and read over every thread and keep a check on everything that happens here, there have been far too many times where people start Graf-hating when it may not even have anything to do with the topic of the thread. When I seldom visit the ZDoom/GZDoom/Skulltag IRC channel, there were also times where people would get into a Graf-hating discussion, and I just don't see what any of it achieves.

I guess it just boils down to "the internets is serious business". Regardless of who's to blame, some people just take things far too seriously :|


Too many people have their heads shoved up their own asses, trying to sniff their own shit which is disguised as butterflies to their liquid brains. They snuffed too much crack apparently, so they think their own asses are the perfect substitute...

I'm glad to hear at least gzdoom will continue being updated. I can't wait to get on to the 2280+ series.
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Nash » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:43 am

supergoofy wrote:They could also donate ATI cards to Graf, so that he could fix the problems


If he really, really wanted it, I would've sent my ATI card his way.
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Re: GZDoom in Development Hell?

Postby Enjay » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:48 am

Wow! I go to bed early and miss all the drama. :?

Regardless of all the politics, the shouting and the tantrums, this is a sad day for me. I love GZdoom and I love what Graf has done with it. Yes, the developments in these threads sadden me.



Regardless of what has been said here, and more so in the DW thread, the way this has gone shouldn't be too much of a surprise for anyone who has been watching things develop. It certainly didn't just happen in that thread or as a result of an isolated comment or two. This has been brewing for some time. There are faults on all sides and there are whatever-the-opposite-of-faults-are on all sides too.


For what its worth, for the record and at the risk of rudely discussing someone's personality so publicly, I like Graf. Sure, he has a quick temper and a harsh tongue but I can't say that it really ever bothered me much. I'm prepared to roll with that and live and let live. Yes he has said things that I have winced at and he has certainly done some things in ways I wouldn't. That's how Graf conducts himself, it's his choice and my choice is to not let it bother me. At least you always know where you stand with Graf - because he will tell you, on no uncertain terms.

However, I can't dismiss what he has selflessly done for this community. What does seem to be getting lost here is just how much time effort and work Graf has devoted to GZdoom and Zdoom. There is hardly anyone (if anyone at all) who mods for (G)Zdoom and who plays the games who does not benefit from his work. He has fixed countless bugs and added countless features (many of which are very significant) to both ports and the game would be quite different without his efforts. Personally, I have also generally found him very helpful and approachable (yes, you read correctly) - particularly if you work with him on an issue (eg making sure a bug report has a suitable illustrating WAD or whatever). I have also found him very accommodating about releasing new versions of GZdoom if a mod that I have had in the works was using new, as yet unofficial, code. I mentioned this to the Paranoid team when we were using some SVN code and after an approach by Rex to Graf to ask if we could get an official version to coincide with the release of Paranoid... well, you'll notice that a new version of GZdoom came out shortly before Paranoid did. I think Graf has the most posts on DRD and here and most of Graf's posts are on-topic, useful, technical posts. That's probably not the most reliable method of measuring... well anything really, but I think it is perhaps an indication of how much time and effort the man has given to this community.

Like I said, there are faults on all sides but, when it comes down to it, someone who has significantly helped to improve most, if not all, of our enjoyment of Doom is now feeling very shitty about how it has gone. That's not good.

So, I just want to say thank you to Graf for GZdoom and the fun that I have had with it (and will continue to have with it). I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision. What he does now is entirely his choice. He is the only one who can assess his situation properly and make decisions as to what his next steps are.

So, I will just leave it at this: Thank you Graf.
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