Knee-Deep in ZDoom v1.1 (RC1)

[esselfortium]

The switch still kills it. That just looks plain awful.

Meh. The switch looks fine to me, especially considering that the rest of the room is all either tan or gray STAR* anyway. I suppose it could be changed to a gray one, but I thought it added a nice bit of contrast to the wall without clashing (seeing as it's using the same texture that's in most of the rest of the room). If it's that big of a problem, it could be changed.

But I'm sorry to say, that I have problems with how it looks now. It's too - plain. For example the texture on the wall where the red key is previously was one of the 'damaged' ones with a little added detail. The new one is just STARTAN at its worst - a plain and boring wall without any distinctive marks.

The original wall that opened up to reveal the red key was originally a plain flat wall, just like I have it, only using one of the STAR* variants that had some damaged paneling on it. I didn't really think it mattered too terribly or made a huge difference either way, but much like the switch it's a very simple matter of changing the texture on one linedef if there's a problem with it.

I can understand why you removed the red border and the idiotic floor lights - but why the rest?

Other than the things that have already been mentioned, "the rest" was mostly a couple of paper-thin tekwall "terminals" randomly cut into the wall, causing misalignments in the process. I'm not really sure what else you're referring to that I should have kept? I intentionally replaced the sloppily-placed/aligned details with more cleanly-aligned computer terminals, lights, a ceiling height change by the staircase to make the room appear less flat, etc. The walls themselves are *more* detailed in my version, even, due to the lights and computers added.

Also, why did no one have anything negative to say about this (including you) when I posted it in the development thread several months ago?

[Graf Zahl]

The switch still kills it. That just looks plain awful.

Meh. The switch looks fine to me, especially considering that the rest of the room is all either tan or gray STAR* anyway. I suppose it could be changed to a gray one, but I thought it added a nice bit of contrast to the wall without clashing (seeing as it's using the same texture that's in most of the rest of the room). If it's that big of a problem, it could be changed.

If you think that the contrast is fine I hereby declare your judgment flawed. When I first saw that combination my instant gut reaction was 'Ugh' as in . Sorry.

But I'm sorry to say, that I have problems with how it looks now. It's too - plain. For example the texture on the wall where the red key is previously was one of the 'damaged' ones with a little added detail. The new one is just STARTAN at its worst - a plain and boring wall without any distinctive marks.

The original wall that opened up to reveal the red key was originally a plain flat wall, just like I have it, only using one of the STAR* variants that had some damaged paneling on it. I didn't really think it mattered too terribly or made a huge difference either way, but much like the switch it's a very simple matter of changing the texture on one linedef if there's a problem with it.
[/quote]

Why STARTAN1? Why this particular one? Of all the STAR* textures it's the only one that doesn't work on larger sections of walls without anything breaking its monotony. I don't mean windows but some kind of beams, pillars or other things that doesn't make it look like wallpaper. Aside from the wall damage the old one's color scheme was fine. Now we have dull tan with a clashing gray wall at the end - and integrated in this wall is a tan switch. Sorry, but in my opinion that's just plain *UGLY'*!

I can understand why you removed the red border and the idiotic floor lights - but why the rest?

Other than the things that have already been mentioned, "the rest" was mostly a couple of paper-thin tekwall "terminals" randomly cut into the wall, causing misalignments in the process. I'm not really sure what else you're referring to that I should have kept? I intentionally replaced the sloppily-placed/aligned details with more cleanly-aligned computer terminals, lights, a ceiling height change by the staircase to make the room appear less flat, etc. The walls themselves are *more* detailed in my version, even, due to the lights and computers added.[/quote]

How about the holes in the floor, the greater color variation of the wall textures, the geometry around the switch? None of that needed change and was looking better before. Had you just removed the damage holes, the lights and the red border it would have been fine.

To me this room looks unfinished. As if you wanted to redo it but never managed to complete it.

[esselfortium]

Aside from the wall damage the old one's color scheme was fine.

To that, I say:

If you think that the contrast is fine I hereby declare your judgment flawed. When I first saw that combination my instant gut reaction was 'Ugh' as in . Sorry.

---

How about the holes in the floor,

To be honest, I never even noticed the holes in the floor until I looked at the map in Doom Builder. I could have added them back in, but being that I never noticed them before I completely forgot they were there after I stripped them out along with just about everything else in the room.

the greater color variation of the wall textures,

You mean the red, green, silver, browngrn, metal1, compspan, metal, and pinkish-red lights? That color variation? No thanks.

the geometry around the switch?

What? The switch was originally one square sector with ugly-looking LITE5 all around its edges. What geometry are you talking about? If you mean the wall around it, I straightened out that wall for the same reason I lowered the ceiling above the staircase: to make the room not be a completely flat, blob-shaped abomination.

None of that needed change

Yes it did.

and was looking better before.

No it was not.

Had you just removed the damage holes, the lights and the red border it would have been fine.

Incorrect. Also, weren't you just complaining a minute ago that I had removed *too much* of the detail? Now you're telling me that the room would have been fine if I *only* removed detail without making the other changes and additions? You sound like you're just trying to be contrary for the sake of trolling, seeing as you can't seem to make your point without contradicting your other arguments.

To me this room looks unfinished. As if you wanted to redo it but never managed to complete it.

Nah, though there are a few other areas in the maps that I wanted to redo but never got around to doing. Too bad, I could be receiving the same senseless criticism over those, too. I don't consider myself the best mapper ever, and I'm not trying to come off as an arrogant dickhead, but I can objectively say that just about anything would have been, objectively, an improvement over the original room. Looking at the development thread, Tormentor seemed to like the changes, and looking at this thread, Vader certainly likes them, as do Wills, Kate, RottKing, and....every single other person that I've shown it to.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but between this and your endless amounts of sarcastic "when is this going to be finished?" "lol never " demotivating, harassing garbage in the development thread, which seemed to be posted regardless of the actual facts of the situation (regarding NiGHTMARE repeatedly explaining that he was going to revise z1m2 for a post-1.1 update, and you hounding him about it anyway, despite your claims that it was pointless and unnecessary), I'm really getting sick of this.

If you have problems with my mapping or my attitude regarding your attitude, please feel free to take it up with NiGHTMARE and the rest of the TSoZD team.

[Project Shadowcat]

I think both of you need to STFU. This is stupid non-sense, it's just a godsdamn map with a weird design on 1.0 and then on 1.1. The fact that both of you are trying to push your respective egos (and opinions) on each other with this amount of heat, it just really makes me sick.

I'm of the third godsdamn opinion that think it doesn't look any good either fucking way. How about you rip out the entire thing and try it again? Get another mapper who won't argue with you two.

[CaptainToenail]

I think Essel's changes look better than the original, although I personally would have just changed the red border to something less garish. There's is a better atmosphere in Essel's room because it's dark, grimy, and brown = sexy in doom mapping

I recomend adding some loose tiles or something to the floor though it looks boring

Edit: add some sloped loose tiles to the floor, it looks really cool and I havn't seen it used anywhere else, ever

[Nash]

I like the amount of linedef rape-age detailing in 1.0, but hate the Christmas-y colours.

But the colours in 1.1 are much, MUCH better and also the linedef work doesn't reek of n00bness/detail-whore-age.

So in my opinion, Essel's version is definitely much better than the old one, but I'd suggest some extra detailing like bits of destruction in walls and floors here and there. Right now it looks too clean.

[Graf Zahl]

I won't bother commenting on Essel's last post. I think my opinion is clear. Just this:

1. Fix the switch wall so that it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb.

2.

I recomend adding some loose tiles or something to the floor though it looks boring

3.

I'd suggest some extra detailing like bits of destruction in walls and floors here and there. Right now it looks too clean.

4. Use a bit of STARTAN2 to break the monotony of STARTAN1.

[Enjay]

I like the tilted tiles idea. More interesting than the now all-too-common missing tile effect.

[Graf Zahl]

Just ran KDIZD with my latest changes to the DECORATE parser which among other things contains a better error checker for state parameters and got this:

Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 379:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'
Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 381:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'
Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 383:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'
Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 385:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'
Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 497:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'
Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 499:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'
Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 501:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'
Script warning, "kdizd_11.pk3:decorate/weapons.txt" line 503:
Unknown class name 'AriCaseSmoke'

[Tormentor667]

The new version is definitely better, end of story!

[printz]

Nah, I also like the old version. It WAS supposed to stand out against the rest of the map, because it was the place where it all got black, dangerous stone imps appeared, and you got the red key; it was a key point of the map. The strange colour and brightness scheme made it look eerie and stand a bit out.

And why did esselfortium contribute to KDiZD? I think he was supposed to work on KDiKDiZD? And I don't remember him liking KDiZD 100% in the first place either.

[Gez]

Yes, essel is known for his fierce hatred of ZDoom and all ZDoom mods, which is why he's a listed contributor to KDiZD and part of the TSoZD team. His unbridled loathing of KDiZD is precisely what motivated him to adapt it as faithfully as possible to a vanilla-compatible mod. It makes so much sense!

[printz]

Okay TSoZD you mean? Well that's good! Go TSoZD.

But let me be more helpful in this thread. I'm reporting a bug or oversight present in v.10.

NOTE: AS OF NOW WHAT I'M DESCRIBING BELOW BELONGS TO V1.0; IGNORE IF IT'S FIXED

The Blood Demons, those with mechanical legs, but maybe not only them, lack speed improvements for -fast mode. Shouldn't all melee species (including Satyrs and Stone Imps) be adapted to move and attack twice as fast? Otherwise they wouldn't gain any improvement and be the same as in non-fast mode.

[Phobus]

Well, if you ask me on what I think of the room, I think either or is fine really. First one needed better aligning, but was otherwise fine, the second one looks a bit dull compared to how I remember most of Z1M1, but is otherwise fine. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

[Graf Zahl]

Either way, it doesn't really matter.

Well, that's where I disagree. The problem I am having is that in this quite overdetailed map this room stands out. (Not to mention that switch... )