[RANT] The ZDoom forums as a resource for editors.

[solarsnowfall]

A simple map, addressing a particular issue, I find, is the best guide one can ask for.

But where would it end? And how much server space should be reserved for adding demo maps to download from the Wiki? I don't think we want to go down that road...

[Kappes Buur]

A simple map, addressing a particular issue, I find, is the best guide one can ask for.

But where would it end? And how much server space should be reserved for adding demo maps to download from the Wiki? I don't think we want to go down that road...

Do you have any conception of how much space is taken up by dead information on the WIKI? In particular the section devoted to ZDoom Mods. Certainly, a few simple maps would be far more beneficial.

[Nash]

How about a Beginner's forum, where n00bs and newbies can ask their simple questions? I've seen some forums that have that kind of thing.

Don't forget that the Wiki itself isn't updated regularly, which is why some of these threads come up. For example, there was no documentation regarding FONTDEFS at the wiki at all; had I not asked about it in the forum, there was nowhere else to learn about the lump.

Another example is the new player classes feature. Much of the information you'd want for this feature can only be found in the forum. So don't be surprised when a thread about player classes comes up.

But yes, I do agree with Sir_Alien. Too much "crap". Makes it hard to use the Search feature. I think if there's a separate forum for newbie questions, Searching for stuff would be easier.

Then there's the usual crappy unrelated posts in a useful thread; this I trust the moderator team to clean regularly (go guys! XD).

[Bio Hazard]

Alrighty. I have a few things to say.

Crappy bugreports/suggestions: Not my problem, that's Graf's job. He can do absolutely whatever he wants with them. If he want's to delete trash, so be it.

Tagging useful threads: I'm all for stickying useful threads, but I don't want it to become the KDiZD forum where you have go to page 3 to get to the non-sticky topics.
I'm trying to get back into the habit of coloring threads, green is good, yellow is pretty crapful and red is real-bad stuff. Usually stuff will be deleted before you see it red.

People asking you questions over IM: I don't mind it so much. It really bugs me when they ask questions I make obvious I don't know.

Mis-information: How am I supposed to know what's right? Especially when I don't know DCR or pretty much anything else. Q doesn't even play doom, let alone mod for it. Q and I were picked because we were willing to deal with the crap, not because we are knowledgable.

Culling crap threads: A lot of times when I delete a post, the affected user is too dense to realize it was deleted because it's crap and reposts it.
I'm also afraid of just doing mass deletions since I never know when it will just result in a 10-page thread popping up about nazi moderation. (which has happened)
I'd also edit people's posts, but I wouldn't like to think that "big brother" can twist my words so I don't believe that practice is right. Total-delete or nothing.
I'll put a poll here asking about moderation.

Changing thread titles: I really don't like to change thread titles because then I get confused. It's hard to remember which threads you are following when the names keep changing.

Wasted DB space: I would wager that 40% of the posts here are worthless. Not much I can do about it though, I'm not in charge of what you post.

Sample wads for the WIKI: I think it's an excellent idea, that's what made the ZDKB great. I could see what the tutorial explained in action. It really sucks when you follow a tutorial that gives you something totally different than what you wanted. Especially when the WIKI is almost devoid of screenshots.

Dealing with prople: I'm working on a system to make moderation a bit easier. It will include a better way to report posts, temp ban tracking and documentation on moderation protocoll. I don't know when it will be done, it's such a downer to work on...

Sir_Alien for moderator: Heh.

[Sir_Alien]

Okay, this issue is getting muddy here, so allow me to put forward a suggestion that I believe will begin to erode the original issue I was trying to address in the first place, which was cluttered forums.

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, give me junior mod status over the editing forums, and allow me to go back through all the old threads and begin to compile like-topics, apply new titles where appropriate while trashing the nonsensical, the misinformed and the downright inane. This would allow for a far more fluid search through the forums for all concerned.

For example: if you wanted to search for information on how to implement a scoring system, this information is not readily available on the wiki. However, a search on the forums turns up this [EDIT] I've just been informed you can't link to search results, so search "Scoring System" and you'll see what I mean[/EDIT]; "where to begin?" you ask... And I haven't bothered to look, but I'm sure that the majority of those threads don't contain any useful insights into the concept...

However, what if all the little shreds of information were compiled into a single, primary thread where, in chronological order, you could read from the first time the question was raised through until the latest piece of genuine information, without out the rubbish and crap in between, which would all go in the bin.

I don't care about being a mod; I don't care about bans or warnings or people's behaviour or any of that shit any more. I'll even happily give it up when the job is done. Just let me do this, please, for the love of God, let me clean up the editing forums...

Finally, I wrote this out before Bio posted.

[Nash]

I think the better solution is to update the wiki, document everything and slap an example wad at the bottom, ZDKB style.

[Sir_Alien]

Fine, I'll do that too.

Would a suitable solution be to link to the "primary" thread from the appropriate wiki page, and vice-versa?

[Bio Hazard]

I think whenever a useful thread pops up, someone should paraphrase (or even just copy+paste) the whole thing (minus the crap obviously) into the WIKI, the WIKI certainly has better search capabilities...
Not like I'm willing to go to all that work though.

One thing is for certain, we need some way to upload screenshots to the WIKI. I'd write up a thing, but then it would rely on DRD, which is down all the time.

[Sir_Alien]

I think whenever a useful thread pops up, someone should paraphrase (or even just copy+paste) the whole thing (minus the crap obviously) into the WIKI, the WIKI certainly has better search capabilities...
Not like I'm willing to go to all that work though.

I am. It's not enough to dismiss the information found on the forums as though it was a non-issue. Regardless of the chaotic nature of how the information is stored, they have proven useful to me many, many times.

Are you at least willing to consider my suggestion? I think if you start from there, you'll find updating the wiki with all the appropriate information a lot easier.

Also, I understand your concerns about Nazi-Moderation, but I have to say, who gives a shit? So people call you a Nazi... Do you really care what people who invoke such an obtuse insult think of you?

[DomRem]

One thing is for certain, we need some way to upload screenshots to the WIKI.

This can already be done (in fact, I haven't come across a wiki that didn't allow you to upload screenshots yet). Special:Upload should allow you to upload images and even other types of files to the wiki; the link is located on the left sidebar in the toolbox underneath the search box (Upload file). An example page with a screenshot is this page, and the PolyObjects article has a ZIP file linked near the bottom. This has been possible on the ZDoom Wiki for as long as I can remember (June 2005).

[Hobbs]

Wasted DB space: I would wager that 40% of the posts here are worthless. Not much I can do about it though, I'm not in charge of what you post.

Ya if randy really wanted to save file space on his site then the forum pruning would be much more aggressive. Its not like your threads here take up no space at all. And I'm sure the archives in /files would be done with better compression formats all around too.

[Bio Hazard]

Are you at least willing to consider my suggestion?

Not my desicion. Take that up with Randy.

So people call you a Nazi... Do you really care what people who invoke such an obtuse insult think of you?

It's not so much that, it's the 10 pages of crap it generates that I have to also delete.

[Nmn]

I agree with Sir_Alien, however, only to a degree.

I usually trawl through dozens of pages of crap on the ZDoom Forums hoping to stumble upon an answer.

Wiki and searching the forums suffices for me. Sorry bud, but I cannot imagine this 'wading through crap'. Very often, when I'm on the hunt for some editing answers (like my last-quitting sounds) I searched the forums and found the answer pretty quickly. I cannot resquest anything more as it's enough for me so I cannot sign the editing resource petition (Thank God the search forums function doesn't browse offtopic threads ._. ). If [censored word] posts bother one why not utilise the ignore list? It's obvious authors of crappy comments will not provide you with knowledge you seek, so why bother caring about them?

I however completely agree about people asking for the simplest things in the editing thread, as if they couldn't dig in their noses without parental help. It's at the end of my tongue to burst at those folks "Have you heard of Trial and error?!" but let them discover this learning method. Individual discovery is the best form of learning eh? As for feature requests-I don't even look there. Zdoom has amazing capabilities for me as it is, and if it's missing a feature (vehicles for instance) then my humbleness will redesign my project to cope with the lack of this feature. Simple. ACS is a powerful system, my demands, or rather, needs, are tiny.

Jes expressing an opinion.

Also, in my opinion, expanding the wiki is the best idea. It's the sole place that's almost completely rid of crap and the best information source when it comes to editing.

[Sir_Alien]

I don't disagree with anything you said; in fact, my first post states:

I remind myself that not everyone is created the same and that some learn differently from others

All I'm saying is that people like me, who do go about things the way I do and who do find it frustrating and who do find themselves trawling through pages of irrelevant threads to find that one, obscure answer, we need something done about it.

And I'm not even asking someone else to do it..! I'll do it! What can it hurt? Someone, someday is probably going to have to do it anyway if you all want your wiki update to be as comprehensive as possible.

Not like I'm willing to go to all that work though.

You all have a solution but no one's doing anything about it. Well, I'm willing to start the ball rolling, cause no one else is...

[Cutmanmike]

Sample wads for the WIKI: I think it's an excellent idea, that's what made the ZDKB great. I could see what the tutorial explained in action. It really sucks when you follow a tutorial that gives you something totally different than what you wanted. Especially when the WIKI is almost devoid of screenshots.

Maybe we should have someone who has access to upload to the wiki and take requests from others to upload these sample files? (Unless you already can)