Whats happening ?

[Kappes Buur]

viewtopic.php?p=1263453#p1263453

My view, unless I am wrong in which case I will apologize, is that there is an important difference.

The transitions from ZDoom and QZDoom to GZDoom were amicable, at least at the time.
Whereas the transition to UZDoom seems more predatory, fueled by misgivings, something like
a cuckoo invading an existing nest.

I had a look through the last 100 pages of Changelogs. There are a lot of contributors, all of them added and aided in the development of GZDoo. But the gist is, they did so voluntarily with Graf at the helm.

I can understand that disputes can happen, but 4.15 is still experimental, nothing set in stone until a full release. So, I am surprise to see such an uproar, mostly by people on the fringes as a gut reaction instead of fact, over the inclusion of AI generated code. After all, any code in a developmental state can be pushed an pulled at any time.

My sense of the debacle is that there must be something else at work, from a select group of a few coders, trying to highjack GZDoom as their own..

I look forward to what they have to say in their upcoming statement.

[Redneckerz]

Being there as it happened, i too was surprised nothing showed up here. But being there as it happened, i understood why. The event was completely sudden. It was an upspark, an offset. There is only so much you can do. I get where Enjay is coming from though.

And yes - ZDF should have gotten the memo. But when it comes to outreach, DW isn't a strange backup. Either way, it has been done.

The port was originally be called DZDoom which would have been problematic since there is already a GZDoom-derived fork that is called this way. So atleast from that end, effort was made to differentiate the name enough that it was its own thing.

From there on out, its on them. The momentum is now there and should be used when the iron is still hot.

My sense of the debacle is that there must be something else at work, from a select group of a few coders, trying to highjack GZDoom as their own..

I look forward to what they have to say in their upcoming statement.

Yeah there is not.
- The AI thing was just one of the drops that spilled the bucket.
- Another thing was the push to master and avoiding any and all changes made - A direct push to master without verification is the biggest no-no one can make, intentional or not.
- The commentary and attitude on display, combined with points 1 and 2 were the biggest offset. With no disrespect to Graf, but most of us long enough here are well aware of how Graf responds and reacts. Its his character.

The team that is now making UZDoom was also a big chunk of the contributors and they decided what they did. That doesn't mean GZ is dead, which is an allusion first wave commenters keep on reiterating - GZ is still active unless this is otherwise so stated.

There isn't a highjack going on because the team isn't highjacking whatsoever. If anything, they are following up on Graf's own suggestion - To fork the project. And Graf's free to contribute to UZ - But rather than being the defacto decisionmaker on what goes into the port and what not, its now a collective.

[lfrx]

I read the official statement on zdoom.org.
Graf has always been toxic and a pain to work with it seems.

Now the other Maintainers stepped up and are rightfully against gpl violation and unethical use of AI.

I dont want harm to Graf but he deserved to be removed from controlling the project and ignoring the community.

I am happy to se democracy at last

[fakemai]

Technically there's a UZDoom as well but that didn't really happen, it's just in a random Doomworld thread that turned up when looking into this. Anyway I'm expecting it'll all naturally work its way into a single project again, UZDoom already picks out changes from GZDoom and the reverse can happen too. Not worried.

[SanyaWaffles]

Kappes, I'll be direct: Forking the engine is something they (and anyone else) can do legally and ethically as long as they follow the GPLv3, which has been done. I have forked GZDoom because I didn't see eye to eye with Graf on many of his design decisions, and I will continue to fork upstream with UZDoom for branding and standalone game purposes. It's part of the ecosystem of open source. (Graf did give the fork his blessing by saying people could fork, even in a cosmic sort of way).

Also, One can acknowledge and give credit to Graf's contributions and advancements he has made (and everyone reasonable has tried to do) while also acknowledging the man has some deep faults that makes him hard to work with most people (which a lot of people have done). And Graf isn't the only one who has contributed to the engine. In fact he barely had for a year now.

None of these things are mutually exclusive.

As for the contributing factors, as Redneckerz pointed out, the AI thing was just the tip of the iceberg. With all intents of calling it how I see it - Graf has had a history of being extremely hard to work with, very authoritarian and nasty, especially to newcomers with good faith intentions, and has even condoned harassment while bitching about his own harassment.

I also have no qualms saying he vaguely held over my head the "legalities" of making fun of his avatar in my game and decrying commercial game devs using his engine (not just me).

I think you should read the room here. Something's gotta change, and has changed. Excuse my frankness in discussing this, I'm frankly tired and I ain't even on the UZDoom dev team. I can't imagine how they feel. Sure, improvements could have been made on disclosing this, but this is where we're at now.

[Enjay]

My only concern (and it's not really a concern at all) with the name is how far down the alphabetical list it places the port. I mean the 21st letter of the alphabet followed by the 26th.

[Redneckerz]

My only concern (and it's not really a concern at all) with the name is how far down the alphabetical list it places the port. I mean the 21st letter of the alphabet followed by the 26th.

I have it on record that AZDoom and OZDoom were also considered. AZ because the port runs everything from A to Z, and OZ for Original ZDoom and the Ozzy Osbourne and Wizard of Oz references.

[Enjay]

Yep, I saw that those names had been considered too.
Cetainly, having a vowel at the start is quite useful because the name can be pronounced as a single word, for those that want to do such a thing, rather than sounding out the letters. Doing that also circumvents the age-old debate of "is it zee or zed". Personally, I tend to go for zeta doom because it was a suggestion that was brought up many years ago when the zee/zed thing was being discussed. However, I have also relatively recently found out that an old name for the letter Z was uzzard. Now, wouldn't that be clumsy in combination with the U. Ewe-Uzzard-Doom.

[Boondorl]

viewtopic.php?p=1263453#p1263453

My view, unless I am wrong in which case I will apologize, is that there is an important difference.

The transitions from ZDoom and QZDoom to GZDoom were amicable, at least at the time.
Whereas the transition to UZDoom seems more predatory, fueled by misgivings, something like
a cucko envading an existing nest.

I had a look through the last 100 pages of Changelogs. There are a lot of contributors, all of them added and aided in the development of GZDoo. But the gist is, they did so voluntarily with Graf at the helm.

I can understand that disputes can happen, but 4.15 is still experimental, nothing set in stone until a full release. So, I am surprise to see such an uproar, mostly by people on the fringes as a gut reaction instead of fact, over the inclusion of AI generated code. After all, any code in a developmental state can be pushed an pulled at any time.

My sense of the debacle is that there must be something else at work, from a select group of a few coders, trying to highjack GZDoom as their own..

I look forward to what they have to say in their upcoming statement.

Curious to hear your thoughts on this now.