The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

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dpJudas
 
 
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by dpJudas »

Vulkan exclusive mode doesn't change the display resolution - what it does, supposedly, is to slightly reduce input latency and micro stutters, although even then I'm not so sure exactly why that should be any different than when the DWM turns itself off. I would love to hear the technical difference and why it should still matter in 2022 from a Microsoft engineer working on this part of Windows. :)
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by yum13241 »

DWM has forced VSync and can't be turned off in Windows 8 and up w/o making the system unstable. Meanwhile you can turn off compositing on Linux, or even the window manager altogether. There was this weird bug reported here about VSync troubles because the NVIDIA gpu and intel gpu has mismatched timings or smth.


Linux ftw.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by dpJudas »

You are wrong. DWM turns itself off when applications create a borderless full screen window. Speaking of the technical difference, here it is. The important part for you to read is this:

"To get back this performance overhead, we enhanced the DWM to recognize when a game is running in a borderless full screen window with no other applications on the screen. In this circumstance, the DWM gives control of the display and almost all the CPU/GPU power to the game. Which in turn allows equivalent performance to running a game in FSE. Fullscreen Optimizations is essentially FSE with the flexibility to go back to DWM composition in a simple manner. This gives us the best of both worlds with performance and other features that require the DWM, such as overlays.  When an overlay such as the Game Bar is present, the DWM reassumes control of the display, and a slight performance overhead is incurred so that the overlay can be composited on top of the game in a safe and stable way."

Or in TL;DR language: borderless full screen is without the DWM (read: vsync is NOT forced) unless some other window puts itself on top. If the article is accurate, all full screen exclusive does is prevent other windows to place themselves on top of the game, thus ensuring there the DWM can never be active by accident.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by yum13241 »

You are wrong. DWM turns itself off when applications create a borderless full screen window. Speaking of the technical difference, here it is. The important part for you to read is this:
There is no way to turn this off yourself outside a game.


See: viewtopic.php?p=1049259&hilit=nvidia+op ... c#p1049259 and viewtopic.php?t=60226



In particular, Rachael said the following:
If you've gotten this far reading this, you're probably wondering what in the living hell "Optimus" is and why it's so shitty with newer versions of Windows. I will attempt to answer that for you, here.

Without getting too gritty and technical, Optimus is a system that allows your NVidia chip to literally "draw" onto another graphics processor. In Leyman's terms, imagine that you're a better artist, but you have to use someone else's sketch pad because you have none of your own. Optimus-enabled laptops work like this.

The problem here is that the other graphics processor, the Intel, which actually shows your screen, is getting VSync timings at different times than your NVidia processor is. Normally this is not an issue, unless the drawing has to be buffered (i.e. it doesn't happen immediately, DWM gives the NVidia drawer a canvas to draw on instead of drawing directly to the screen). So you basically have proxy-of-a-proxy drawing. By the time it finally hits the Intel chip to be shown, it's already a frame late and it's quite likely a new VSync signal has already hit. DWM will only work on your Intel processor and get its VSync timings - whereas GZDoom will get NVidia's VSync timings - and therein lies the issue. So DWM thinks it needs to wait another frame to show a frame that GZDoom already drew for *this frame* - and that causes a noticeable frame lag, and because the timings are not sync'd, it looks like it stutters even if it really doesn't. In fact, it's completely random every frame whether it's stuck waiting for the next frame, or drawing on this one. And it looks like shit as a result.

It could easily be fixed by Microsoft if they introduced some way to turn off VSync syncing with DWM.exe, or if they allowed you to switch its VSync timing to the NVidia chip. But since they do not care enough about this issue to do anything at all about it, this is the situation we are stuck with.

Graf said:
I don't know why you blame Microsoft. To me it sounds like DWM is doing what it should, i.e. sync with the actual display adapter. This sounds to me like a shitty implementation by NVidia, whose driver poorly supports this setup. If the display is handled by the Intel chip, the secondary graphics ship should have no business reporting its own VSync state to the app.

dpJudas said:
'd say there's plenty of blame to around. :)

Microsoft for locking OpenGL in 1.6 land with an ICD driver model from Windows 3.11 for Workgroups or something. I.e. the reason you can't select a GPU device is because MS effectively refuses to update OpenGL32.dll to support multiple ICD's. The DWM implementation itself is also pretty crap with the DWM failing to present a vsync flipped OpenGL frame once every few seconds on basically all systems.

Nvidia and Intel for selling a solution that's ultimately going to be shit.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by dpJudas »

yum13241 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:39 amThere is no way to turn this off yourself outside a game.
Hey the past called - they want your Windows Vista to Windows 7 migration complaint back. Nobody said you can turn off the DWM completely on the system. What I said is the DWM turns itself off when it detects a borderless full screen application. You want evidence? There's that thing called GZDoom, which is a borderless full screen application, it has a vsync feature that you can turn off. Magic.
Okay now you're just rambling. How laptop hardware splits usage between their integrated GPU and their discrete GPU has absolutely nothing to do with anything here. Your quotes are also for OpenGL. Vulkan is not OpenGL. And finally the quote from me is about how the DWM micro-stutters in windowed mode. I hate to repeat myself here, but windowed mode is not full screen.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by Rachael »

(replying to Yum's post)

Yeah - that Optimus info is likely also pretty out-of-date at this point - and it also only applies in specific scenarios where the NVidia GPU is a render-only device (which is common in laptops).

If you do have an Optimus setup in your laptop and are experiencing frame rate or sync problems, it's likely an issue with the Optimus setup or drivers themselves - and if that is the case there's only a marginal chance (i.e. it's unlikely) that true FSE is going to fix that.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by yum13241 »

If you do have an Optimus setup in your laptop and are experiencing frame rate or sync problems, it's likely an issue with the Optimus setup or drivers themselves - and if that is the case there's only a marginal chance that true FSE is going to fix that.
I don't even have an NVIDIA chip.

Hey the past called - they want your Windows Vista to Windows 7 migration complaint back. Nobody said you can turn off the DWM completely on the system. What I said is the DWM turns itself off when it detects a borderless full screen application. You want evidence? There's that thing called GZDoom, which is a borderless full screen application, it has a vsync feature that you can turn off. Magic.
You don't have to be condescending, and I was trying to say how DWM can potentially wreck performance.

Change of subject, what I last did: Contemplate rewriting my railgun.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by Rachael »

DWM does wreck performance in some situations - but I have seen it for myself how, when you have an borderless fullscreen game running, it does indeed turn itself off. What the Microsoft engineer said is not a lie - alt-tabbing out of it creates very familiar glitches, almost as if it was absent the whole time.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by yum13241 »

I can agree, alt + tab out in Borderless Windowed does feel seamless. Also try Borderless Gaming, for less pain! (not made by me)
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by CandiceJoy »

I've been doing lots of random projects xD GZDoom and Raze dev builds for DRD, zscript syntax highlighting for the zdoom wiki, I started to work a bit on a nodejs data store frontend to sqlite, hugging the shit out of Rachael, random bug finding and squashing, second life, some WoW, etc :3
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by AlphaEnt »

Currently working on a sequel of a project i've did for latest reload magazine gamejam.

It is not zdoom related, but i may have a plan in the far future to make a doom port of it.
(i've used efpse engine for the gamejam, but thought the animations in a way that could be easily ported into gzdoom, also, yeah it may look mediocre, but I had 4 days to work on this)

Footage if from first game, with a postjam update. No public footage of sequel yet.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by InsanityBringer »

honestly, I can feel the DWM impact pretty heavily sometimes, though that's also made worse by me using AMD. OpenGL games like the freakin neptunia games shouldn't have any trouble running on my machine, given their age and budget graphical quality, and indeed in fullscreen there's no problems at all. That was fine until I started playing in Japanese, and I ran in a window to be able to quickly consult a text dumper or dictionary. Suddenly, once the fancy effects in battle started flying, my framerates would drop into the sub 30s. It was a little dumb..

I hear AMD's new less crap OpenGL implementation can give up to a 3x speed boost for the neptunia games, but heck if I know if I'm getting that on this crappy old card. Would be nice if they did that 6+ years ago...

EDIT: So uh, I have AMD's new OpenGL implementation. I noticed this because a number of GL extensions vanished into the ether, such as GL_EXT_packed_pixels (used by Descent 3). In fact, all the textures used by Descent 3 vanished into the ether, since AMD now seems to be enforcing OpenGL's texture completeness rules now, and Descent 3 didn't give mipmapped textures a full set of mipmaps. I wrote a patch for this in InjectD3
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by NeuralStunner »


It's that time again...
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by scalliano »

I had planned to use my New Year holiday to work on some stuff - some music, some modding, maybe catch up on my gaming backlog in the process. Then I got wind of a potential design fault with the PS5 where Sony didn't do such a great job of keeping the liquid metal in place on the CPU when the system is upright. Only thing with rectifying this was that laying it down flat would mean a bit of cable management in my media centre.

So I did the sensible thing and turned everything off at the mains. For some reason, this tripped my whole house. None of the plug sockets would work, and I had to go out to the fuse box to reset it. Everything turned on again... except for my PC which had been running at the time and was connected to a different socket away from my media centre. Nothing I tried worked, the system was completely dead. I had a spare power supply which I knew worked so I proceeded to install it. I flipped the I/O switch on the PSU and... the entire house tripped again. Reset the fuse box, and the same thing happened. Everything turned back on, except the PC.

So just like that, my PC is dead. I've had to raid my savings in order to sort out a new one and not only am I stuck with a laptop that can barely run Youtube for at least the next three weeks, but I'm also terrified that the same thing will happen to the new one. What should have been a simple exercise to protect a £450 investment resulted in almost four times that going down the tubes.

Happy New Year, everyone.
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Re: The Still New What Did You Last Do Thread

Post by phantombeta »

scalliano wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:28 am I had planned to use my New Year holiday to work on some stuff - some music, some modding, maybe catch up on my gaming backlog in the process. Then I got wind of a potential design fault with the PS5 where Sony didn't do such a great job of keeping the liquid metal in place on the CPU when the system is upright. Only thing with rectifying this was that laying it down flat would mean a bit of cable management in my media centre.

So I did the sensible thing and turned everything off at the mains. For some reason, this tripped my whole house. None of the plug sockets would work, and I had to go out to the fuse box to reset it. Everything turned on again... except for my PC which had been running at the time and was connected to a different socket away from my media centre. Nothing I tried worked, the system was completely dead. I had a spare power supply which I knew worked so I proceeded to install it. I flipped the I/O switch on the PSU and... the entire house tripped again. Reset the fuse box, and the same thing happened. Everything turned back on, except the PC.

So just like that, my PC is dead. I've had to raid my savings in order to sort out a new one and not only am I stuck with a laptop that can barely run Youtube for at least the next three weeks, but I'm also terrified that the same thing will happen to the new one. What should have been a simple exercise to protect a £450 investment resulted in almost four times that going down the tubes.

Happy New Year, everyone.
Yikes! that sounds like you might have an extremely serious wiring issue in your house, like a floating neutral. You should get that checked ASAP!

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