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skdursh wrote:This looks amazing and also like it's going to melt some computers. I can already smell the tidal wave of "wtf this sucks I only get 10fps" coming to shore.
Apart from the Bloom in the screenshots (which is optional player side), it doesn't look like there is anything ridiculous going on at all. No 3d models, very modest use of portals, no or limited 3d floors or slopes...
It will remain to be seen, but I think most of this is just solid texture and sprite work. It shouldn't be that much more processor intensive than running regular Doom maps, in my opinion.
Vostyok wrote:
Apart from the Bloom in the screenshots (which is optional player side), it doesn't look like there is anything ridiculous going on at all. No 3d models, very modest use of portals, no or limited 3d floors or slopes...
But lots of detail, which is far more demanding. Neither 3D floors nor slopes are particularly performance hungry. Portals can be an issue on older hardware, though.
The lesson here: Just because it says "Doom" does not necessarily mean it doesn't need good hardware to run smoothly.
Can I get a definition for "detail". I haven't found much information on this. Is it sector count, linedefs, more obstacles for the ai to think about, visible sprites at once? I am curious as to what the main culprits are
Graf Zahl wrote:Just because it says "Doom" does not necessarily mean it doesn't need good hardware to run smoothly.
I know you gotta hear the same thing over and over about performance issues, but you saying this over and over in response has a certain symmetry to it that I really appreciate.
Vostyok wrote:Can I get a definition for "detail". I haven't found much information on this. Is it sector count, linedefs, more obstacles for the ai to think about, visible sprites at once? I am curious as to what the main culprits are
Sprites are most costly, followed by walls. Sector count is irrelevant, but lots od subsectors can also add up.
Not sure how I missed this but I'm glad I now know about it! =D I'm just sad it still isn't released yet, it looks incredible!
The only tiny little worry I have is that 10 weapons + 2 firing modes per weapon sounds kind of unwieldy and also opens the possibility of weapons "stepping on each other's toes" so to speak, i.e. more than one weapon have the same general/situational uses. Obviously, for some people, variety trumps this issue, but just my tiny worry you're free to quell. This still looks incredibly fun and gorgeous, I hope that point isn't lost among my petty nitpicking! =)
About the weapons, behavioral overlap was something I kept in my mind when drafting out the concepts. We tried to be very careful with the weapon behaviors so that overlap would be minimized. One good thing is that even though these weapons are new, we're still using Doom's general weapon behaviors as a foundation. So you'll get the same sort of progression and power tiering with the Supplice weapons, except that our weapons are going to be more powerful and bombastic than the vanilla Doom weapons. Pillowblaster has been extremely helpful in this regard by the way.
Most of the weapons are done at this point, and I've been doing a good bit of play testing with them. And so far, I think everything feels unique enough that one weapon doesn't completely overshadow another one. Also the plan right now is to introduce each weapon in steps at you progress through each episode (I guess that should be a given). Some of the later weapons get a bit of personality from the setting they get introduced in (ie. the Plasma Blaster will show up in the high-tech bases on Triton, the Slugger will show up in the industrial factories on Daphnis, etc).
Apart from outright showing people how the weapons behave during normal gameplay, its probably hard to tell if they'll be unique and fun to play with. Although I'm hoping to record some gameplay clips soon (Bouncy has been doing some really awesome sfx work lately), so maybe something like that will help.
Hey, thanks a ton for the update! I'm relieved you're worried about the same thing and I appreciate the explanation. That's really one of the few drawbacks of Doom is how as soon as you get the chaingun, you basically never use the pistol again (except for switches probably) which totally wastes the weapon slot, the sprites, and the coding; such a shame for Doom, but I'm glad you recognize that as well. You've pretty effectively quelled my worries and now I'm even more excited to play your mod. =)
Your answer has me curious about something, though, if you wouldn't mind indulging me further; in your own playthroughs and others' who help you test it, how often would you say weapon-switching occurs? Does your mod intend for player precision in what weapon they use in a given situation, or do you design it more openly with preference in mind (i.e., this player prefers weapon 3 & 4 and almost never uses 2, but that's ok because there's enough ammo to go either way, etc.). I'm sure it's a little of both, but maybe you lean more towards one than the other? Thanks again!
I'm glad I could adequately address your concerns! I definitely agree with you on the Pistol/Chaingun dynamic in vanilla Doom; I've never been a huge fan of it. I always appreciate mods that make the Pistol into something more useful.
There probably hasn't been enough testing by other people yet to give a solid answer to your second question (we're still in the balancing phase at this point). But from what we've tried to do with the weapons so far, I would say there's lots of room for player preference. Though it really depends on what weapon I give the player in a given situation (there's still a lot of mapping left to do). With my mapping style, sometimes I like to put focus on specific weapons, at least for certain chunks of a given map. So in that situation, a player will be more persuaded to use, let's say, the Rocket Revolver if that's what I'm supplying them with in a given section.
But if you want to look at all of the weapons, then I would say there is plenty of wiggle room for player preference. Just in my own testing, I like to swap around from weapon to weapon quite a bit. Though that could be just because I love how all the weapons sound and feel (Cage, Pillowblaster, and Bouncy have honestly hit it out of the park with the weapon feel). I think each weapon within each ammo type is probably different enough that a player could opt to use one or the other given their own preferences. Just off the top of my head, this is how I think things will break down:
Spoiler:
Melee
Fist is slightly more useful than the vanilla version. It will likely have an alt-fire that does more damage (we're still figuring this weapon out, so it could totally change).
Pilebunker is going to be a more powerful and versatile version of the Chainsaw. The main attack will do more damage, maybe at the cost of a regenerating "ammo" pool. And the alt-fire is a burst-damage weapon that does higher damage to a single target and fires out piercing blast waves which do additional damage to anything directly in front of it (at the cost of a chunk of the regenerating "ammo" pool).
Bullet Ammo
Assault Rifle/Akimbo Rifles works well as a starting weapon + upgrade to a Chaingun-like weapon. Fairly accurate and its fun to use against low-teir demons. The alt-fire has more damage output at the cost of accuracy.
Minigun works well to stunlock high HP demons and mow through low-teir demons, at the cost of high ammo consumption and a spin-up delay. The turret mode is really cool too, and I find myself using it quite a bit in large encounters to split attention. Though you have to be careful because if it takes too much damage, then you lose your Minigun!
Shell Ammo
Combat Shotgun functions well as a burst damage weapon at close range, pretty much the same as the Shotgun/SSG from vanilla. Alt-fire does 3x damage but with a longer reload and higher pellet spread.
Slugger is a very powerful direct-damage weapon, almost the antithesis of the Combat Shotgun. It does high damage to single targets with the option to load more shells for an absurd burst damage attack (at the cost of speed and accuracy).
Explosive Ammo
Rocket Revolver is essentially the same as the vanilla RL, but with seeking missiles that work well for targets at longer range (so you don't have to be super accurate).
Cremator is a high-powered close range crowd control weapon that eats through ammo. This weapon is probably the best crowd-control weapon in the mod, especially when you use the alt-fire combo.
Cell Ammo
Plasma Blaster is the power weapon that's good in mostly the same ways at the vanilla Plasma Rifle. The Blaster is better at longer ranges though since it has faster projectiles, and the alt-fire is essentially a sniper that cuts through demons.
BFG9K-L is, of course, the big bad power weapon that is mostly an enhanced version of the vanilla BFG. The BFG ball does extra damage to anything that gets near it while flying by. And the BFG fires out a lightning bolt muzzle flash that rips through anything that's at close range. The alt-fire is meant to combo well with the primary fire; its a slow moving ball that drags in and stun enemies so the primary fire can be more effective.
That was probably more than you were asking for, but maybe that helps to illustrate how the weapons will work
Last edited by Mechadon on Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
