Yet another retro source port?

[Rachael]

Well those "rules" only apply if you want your map to be accepted by Doomworld fanatics. Most people - who do happen to use GZDoom - really don't give a flying fuck if your map is made for GZDoom, because they're using it anyway!

When you tune out those 10 loudmouthed critics that Graf mentioned - hardly anyone cares whether your map works in PrBoom+ or GZDoom. At that point, getting something to work on PrBoom+ is really just a novelty more than it is a necessity.

[Graf Zahl]

Sadly, its awful PR, its developers not caring about that, slow development, and bizarre priorities (if I really need 100% perfect emulation of Caverns of Darkness, I can accept that I have to use the original executable), basically doom the port, as you already mentioned, which is a damn shame.

The irony with Caverns of Darkness is that the engine already possesses everything except the two sector specials to support that map set - if someone jumped over their own shadow and just ported my patch to EDF. But it has always been like that - lots of talk - lots of wishful thinking how they alone can implement the "proper" way to support this mod and here we are, 17 years later, and nothing has happened, because they were shooting for an unattainable ideal.

Regarding PrBoom+, the elephant in the room is not that they decided on PrBoom+, but that they decided on demo compatibility. Which in itself I can understand, but it's like so often - a feature with no relevance for the majority of users gets overemphasized. Most of the UMAPINFO related talk was not about what this feature can bring to mapping, but what the impact on demos would be. In any case, the biggest problem is indeed that PrBoom+'s maintainer had chosen not to implement any forward looking features and that nobody is there with a tiny bit of vision how to move forward and the ability to implement it. Lots of armchair developers but not a single one willing to take the dive and improve the port. It's not that the community does not want it - the far bigger problem is that nobody really cares to make it happen. I am dead certain - should such a developer show up - things will start moving again. And yes, this precisely is what pisses me off about Team Eternity. There's nobody on the team really working to advance the public image of the port. Just have a look at their Heretic and Hexen support. It's going nowhere because like with Caverns of Darkness they are shooting for perfection - preferebly with **hacked support - which with these games is a LOT harder to achieve than with Doom.

As for the stuff that gets done - seriously, who cares about edge portals? The only person is probably Mordeth who has become one of the biggest jokes of the community by working on "something" and not shown a shred of it in 22 years. TBH, having only such mappers is worse than having developers without a vision. I thought Eternity was going somewhere when Printz picked up the portal code in 2016, but once that was done the entire development cycle reverted to the same-old bumbling around that has been plaguing the port for so many years before where lots if stuff gets started but nothing worthwile gets finished. Even such hobby projects need a bit of professional attitude, i.e. if you got a feature, see to it that it gets done, and don't get sidetracked by the next cool thing. Otherwise nothing will be achieved.

And yes, this makes me angry. I seriously miss the maps that aren't done as a result. The community could be in a much better shape and there could be so much more interesting projects if Eternity was in a better position to lead with feature development. But on that front it has been doing nearly everything wrong which pretty much ensured that the features won't get used. I honestly think that by now the only way to break this vicious cycle is for GZDoom to implement EDF and then see if that can sway some mappers.

Well those "rules" only apply if you want your map to be accepted by Doomworld fanatics. Most people - who do happen to use GZDoom - really don't give a flying fuck if your map is made for GZDoom, because they're using it anyway! When you tune out those 10 senseless loudmouthed critics that Graf mentioned - hardly anyone cares whether your map works in PrBoom+ or GZDoom. At that point, getting something to work on PrBoom+ is really just a novelty more than it is a necessity.

TBH, even at Doomworld I rarely see any negative reception to GZDoom projects, they are mainly well received even at Doomworld and it somehow seems people really want more of that but too many of the mappers are lowering the bar too much, like all those ridiculous 'let's set an arbitrary limit' mods that seem to be so popular.

[Rachael]

I honestly think that by now the only way to break this vicious cycle is for GZDoom to implement EDF and then see if that can sway some mappers.

The problem here is, the perception of GZDoom "cannibalizing" features is so strong that if you did something like this, it would be seen as you trying to hurt the port, than to help it. They won't see that this feature would allow for effortless multi-targeting, i.e. you only have to write your EDF script once and it works in both GZDoom and Eternity! End-user choices ftw!

That being said though, at the very least it might allow some of R667's bestiary to be translated to EDF - which would help the port's popularity a bit.

At any rate, a bigger miracle would be getting Eternity to run some GZDoom-specific mapsets. I think Eternity would benefit far more greatly if it had some rudimentary DECORATE support, than GZDoom trying to adopt its standards. Someone showing off Eternity running some old ZDoom mods from before the weapons DECORATE support I think would help drum up interest a lot more. Though - to be fair, I suppose translating said mods to EDF would help there, too.

[Kinsie]

I doubt this thread will be especially productive if it continues to go down its current route.

[Graf Zahl]

At any rate, a bigger miracle would be getting Eternity to run some GZDoom-specific mapsets. I think Eternity would benefit far more greatly if it had some rudimentary DECORATE support, than GZDoom trying to adopt its standards. Someone showing off Eternity running some old ZDoom mods from before the weapons DECORATE support I think would help drum up interest a lot more. Though - to be fair, I suppose translating said mods to EDF would help there, too.

Agreed about the cannibalizing. That's why I haven't done it yet. And if I did I'd do a very blunt blog post to explain it. It's really frustrating how this port has managed to create this closed and thickheaded community that's still waiting for Godot (i.e. some unforeseen miracle) that the wider community 'discovers' their port.

I don't even think that they haven't discovered it yet - it's just like with me - they have no use for it. Seriously, what's a port worth whose main distinguishing mark from its closest competitor (that'd be PrBoom+) is to be able to play 5 or 6 more maps while lacking in other regards, like the absence of a hardware renderer? If it got at least working Heretic support it'd give some boost, but even that looks to be unfinished and on hold.

But the same problem holds true for other advanced ports as well. EDGE also has problems gaining traction because ultimately it suffers from the same problem. While doing "their own thing" may be a legitimate developer concern, for interested mappers it's an instant turn-off. So where does that leave us? I think the only other modern port with even a hint of succeeding would be k8Vavoom, if it got a bit more exposure instead of being hosted in some obscure corner of the internet where nobody looks. Because unlike the other ports it is not afraid to copy features to achieve better compatibility!

I doubt this thread will be especially productive if it continues to go down its current route.

I see nothing productive here, just venting some frustration about how some "interested parties" are holding everybody back for totally misguided reasons. Because that's the real problem: The people doing this have the objective to make something they like succeed, but the way they go about it achieves the exact opposite!

[3saster]

TBH, even at Doomworld I rarely see any negative reception to GZDoom projects, they are mainly well received even at Doomworld and it somehow seems people really want more of that but too many of the mappers are lowering the bar too much, like all those ridiculous 'let's set an arbitrary limit' mods that seem to be so popular.

I guess you're right, the reception of these mods seems fine. I guess my bigger problem is the mappers themselves, like the really good mappers (people like Ribbiks, skillsaw, etc.), choose to impose this PrBoom restriction on themselves. So while perhaps you and Rachael are right that the "rules" only need to be followed for Doomworld fanatic acceptance, the problem is that the very best mappers (who unquestionably are mostly from DW) impose these restrictions on themselves, and these are the maps that get the most attention. People see that the best maps are made with these restrictions, rinse and repeat. The weird thing is most of these mappers are NOT fanatics; you can clearly see that skillsaw would probably love to use GZDoom features, and Insane_Gazebo, a important person for vanilla maps, uses GZDoom with non-infinite height! (hence why his playtesters, who ARE PrBoom fanatics, noticed problems with certain cacodemon fights).

But the same problem holds true for other advanced ports as well. EDGE also has problems gaining traction because ultimately it suffers from the same problem. While doing "their own thing" may be a legitimate developer concern, for interested mappers it's an instant turn-off. So where does that leave us? I think the only other modern port with even a hint of succeeding would be k8Vavoom, if it got a bit more exposure instead of being hosted in some obscure corner of the internet where nobody looks. Because unlike the other ports it is not afraid to copy features to achieve better compatibility!

I'm curious to see what happens with EDGE once the ROTT support is finished (afaik the engine side stuff for maps is done, DDF definitions need to be done). I'm sure if done well it will become the de-facto ROTT port (all the other ones are awful or unfinished) and increase it's exposure, but would people start using it for Doom too? We'll find out when it happens I guess. At the very least, unlike Eternity, EDGE does have some notable projects (like Duke It Out in Doom) that will help attract users. The best thing Eternity has going for it is vaporware literally called Vaporware demo, which is just a single map.

[Graf Zahl]

I guess you're right, the reception of these mods seems fine. I guess my bigger problem is the mappers themselves, like the really good mappers (people like Ribbiks, skillsaw, etc.), choose to impose this PrBoom restriction on themselves. So while perhaps you and Rachael are right that the "rules" only need to be followed for Doomworld fanatic acceptance, the problem is that the very best mappers (who unquestionably are mostly from DW) impose these restrictions on themselves, and these are the maps that get the most attention. People see that the best maps are made with these restrictions, rinse and repeat. The weird thing is most of these mappers are NOT fanatics; you can clearly see that skillsaw would probably love to use GZDoom features, and Insane_Gazebo, a important person for vanilla maps, uses GZDoom with non-infinite height! (hence why his playtesters, who ARE PrBoom fanatics, noticed problems with certain cacodemon fights).

Yes, that pretty much sums up the current dilemma. I think what's needed is for someone trying to kick off a GZDoom community project that aims a bit higher than having 30 random maps and not bow to the pressure imposed by the retro faction (which will inevitably happen if such a project came to life.)

I'm curious to see what happens with EDGE once the ROTT support is finished (afaik the engine side stuff for maps is done, DDF definitions need to be done). I'm sure if done well it will become the de-facto ROTT port (all the other ones are awful or unfinished) and increase it's exposure, but would people start using it for Doom too? We'll find out when it happens I guess. At the very least, unlike Eternity, EDGE does have some notable projects (like Duke It Out in Doom) that will help attract users. The best thing Eternity has going for it is vaporware literally called Vaporware demo, which is just a single map.

Hard to say. The ROTT branch has been dormant for 2 years and the master branch has seen its last commit 4 months ago. It looks like the port is dead in the water at the moment.
As for using it as a Doom engine - I'd say it's doubtful. While the current team has made good progress from where they started to work, the port isn't really polished enough yet.
That's the other side of the coin: If you got some projects but the foundation needs work it may be just as off-putting as having a solid foundation but no maps.

[Kinsie]

Hard to say. The ROTT branch has been dormant for 2 years and the master branch has seen its last commit 4 months ago. It looks like the port is dead in the water at the moment.

Coraline mentioned on the ZDoom Forums Discord relatively recently that she's been having some health issues that have been holding things up. Last Thursday she put a call out for DDF coders to help implement all the ROTT actors.

[Gez]

The weird thing is most of these mappers are NOT fanatics; you can clearly see that skillsaw would probably love to use GZDoom features

skillsaw started out as a (G)ZDoom mapper, he worked on ZPack and Stronghold, and had started a project that ended up just being a single map, Hanging Gardens.

Some people can prefer the relative simplicity of the Doom map format. That's why SLADE got that "Preset..." button that lets one use Doom-format line specials in UDMF/Hexen format maps. You can select, say, "DR Door" and it puts the correct values, based on GZDoom's xlat lumps.

[Blzut3]

I think the only other modern port with even a hint of succeeding would be k8Vavoom, if it got a bit more exposure instead of being hosted in some obscure corner of the internet where nobody looks. Because unlike the other ports it is not afraid to copy features to achieve better compatibility!

Well it's not like Vavoom wasn't already doing that, so I guess the first question to answer would be "why wasn't vavoom popular?"

I'm curious to see what happens with EDGE once the ROTT support is finished (afaik the engine side stuff for maps is done, DDF definitions need to be done). I'm sure if done well it will become the de-facto ROTT port (all the other ones are awful or unfinished) and increase it's exposure, but would people start using it for Doom too? We'll find out when it happens I guess. At the very least, unlike Eternity, EDGE does have some notable projects (like Duke It Out in Doom) that will help attract users. The best thing Eternity has going for it is vaporware literally called Vaporware demo, which is just a single map.

With Kaiser apparently doing something with ROTT that window of opportunity could soon sail. While I'm sure they'd do a good job on the port, true Wolf3D engine ports like ECWolf would also be able to come in and easily steal the user base whenever it gets ROTT support.

To be clear I don't think users have any strong affinity towards more pure ports, however if most (not all) other things are equal I do think "this is running the original engine" and "this is accurate enough to play the original demos" will cause people to sway that direction. People switched from the Wolf3D TC for ZDoom to ECWolf even though I don't think most casual players would notice all the nuances that the TC couldn't emulate. It's a balancing act though and GZDoom/ECWolf choose to give up the latter for greater development velocity.

This ultimately goes back to why I think EE is the only one that can really upset the status quo, with EDGE and k8vavoom I can't tell you why a user should prefer them over GZDoom. With EE I could if GZDoom wasn't miles ahead on other things casual users care about. ROTT could indeed be a good reason, but like I was saying, runs the risk of being temporary.

[wildweasel]

I would think that, in terms of ROTT support, added abilities to modify the game would be what really draws me to a port above most others. I'm personally banking on EDGE for that, since DDF is a thing I'm already at least slightly familiar with, and it'd be fun to write an arsenal overhaul for that game.

[Graf Zahl]

I think the only other modern port with even a hint of succeeding would be k8Vavoom, if it got a bit more exposure instead of being hosted in some obscure corner of the internet where nobody looks. Because unlike the other ports it is not afraid to copy features to achieve better compatibility!

Well it's not like Vavoom wasn't already doing that, so I guess the first question to answer would be "why wasn't vavoom popular?"

Easy answer: It was far too buggy. I did make a few tests with it back when it was still active, and it had its share of serious issues. From what I have seen so far, K8vavoom has significantly improved on that regard, but the sour taste of Vavoom may actually keep users away.

Buggy and unstable projects will shed users very quickly - just remember Doom Legacy. In the early 2000's it was quite popular, then got ever more broken and the end result was inevitable.

To be clear I don't think users have any strong affinity towards more pure ports, however if most (not all) other things are equal I do think "this is running the original engine" and "this is accurate enough to play the original demos" will cause people to sway that direction. People switched from the Wolf3D TC for ZDoom to ECWolf even though I don't think most casual players would notice all the nuances that the TC couldn't emulate. It's a balancing act though and GZDoom/ECWolf choose to give up the latter for greater development velocity.

I don't think that the demos are the big factor, but running the original unaltered game data definitely is. A doom "port" that required converting all levels to Build or Quake format first would also be seen as suspicious, not to mention cut it off from most custom content.

This ultimately goes back to why I think EE is the only one that can really upset the status quo, with EDGE and k8vavoom I can't tell you why a user should prefer them over GZDoom. With EE I could if GZDoom wasn't miles ahead on other things casual users care about. ROTT could indeed be a good reason, but like I was saying, runs the risk of being temporary.

Mostly agreed. With EDGE I can't see it either, k8vavoom at least has Vavoom's lighting system as its selling point.
For EE I can outright tell you what the engine needs, and that is an aggressive developer who isn't afraid to push the engine out of its comfort zone that has little overlap with customer demands. By that I do not mean sacrificing demo compatibility, but adding the things that would actually HELP the port. Not overthinking every minute detail 10 times over and then indefinitely postponing it, like what seems to be the norm there.

[SanyaWaffles]

With Kaiser apparently doing something with ROTT that window of opportunity could soon sail. While I'm sure they'd do a good job on the port, true Wolf3D engine ports like ECWolf would also be able to come in and easily steal the user base whenever it gets ROTT support.

I actually really wanna see a better ROTT source port. The game deserves so much better than it's gotten. Not saying the remake is bad, but it's janky as fuck and I prefer the humor and style of the original ROTT more.

It's just a shame it's taking so long.

I would think that, in terms of ROTT support, added abilities to modify the game would be what really draws me to a port above most others. I'm personally banking on EDGE for that, since DDF is a thing I'm already at least slightly familiar with, and it'd be fun to write an arsenal overhaul for that game.

Honestly I do too. Hence EDGE or ECWolf I'd prefer as both are extendible and moddable engines. I dunno if whatever Kaiser is planning will allow for such things.

[Blzut3]

I would think that, in terms of ROTT support, added abilities to modify the game would be what really draws me to a port above most others. I'm personally banking on EDGE for that, since DDF is a thing I'm already at least slightly familiar with, and it'd be fun to write an arsenal overhaul for that game.

Honestly I do too. Hence EDGE or ECWolf I'd prefer as both are extendible and moddable engines. I dunno if whatever Kaiser is planning will allow for such things.

I honestly have no idea why this didn't cross my mind. Good point.

[TheMightyHeracross]

Who are these "Doomworld fanatics"? What's all this talk about Doomworld hating GZDoom or whatever? The worst consistent criticism I hear is that new ZDoom mappers tend to fall to feature creep in their maps, but that's about it.

The real reason that PrBoom+ is the standard at Doomworld is simple- demos. If GZDoom mapping became the new norm, that would kill the speed demo scene. But there's no community-wide vendetta against GZDoom, that's silly.