BorderDoom: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (update 1.1)

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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Terensworth » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:36 am

All in all, I'm still excited, what I've played I really liked. And I can see a ton of potential for this to work out well once the base mod is expanded.
Considering this is mostly a proof of concept... I've got a few things I'd like to point out that could use some work.

1. Enemy scaling, as it stands, leveling up around... 6 or 7 times gets you pitted against enemies that are just massive meatsacks. Monsters that are around your level are beyond tanky and it's a complete coin toss if you have a weapon that can take em down somewhat quickly.
As these are still base doom monsters it's mostly just an issue of tedium cause dodging their attacks is normally not that difficult, but in my experience of playing Doom 2 in which I am level 13... it's just agonizing, especially with pain elementals and lost souls in the mix.

2. SDUs/Backpacks, because of the wonky enemy health scaling, you will end up running very low on ammo very frequently. As the game currently only has 5 weapon types and the staff, you will likely not have ammo to work with as you can only stockpile a very miniscule amount comparetively, especially for the rifles.
Either add backpacks back in or have backpacks be replaced with SDUs for a random ammo type, might be a bit cruel considering the RNG nature but if the mod someday has a functioning store... maybe it won't be so bad in the long run.

3. Containers, another thing you can replace backpacks with are containers that drop alot of guns/shields and ammo, or you could just drop smaller boxes about instead of ammo or health/armor bonuses that drop a good amount of ammo or a gun/shield. This is really just a thing for the mod to nail the borderlands feel a little more, it's hardly a necessity provided the previous two points are looked at.

4. Demon Staff, unless I'm misundestanding this thing, it's a huge pain the use and is more likely to get you killed for charging it rather than do anything useful. The problem is that there's always hitscanners around and it's unlikely any monster will let you charge off it long enough to fire this thing. This also comes with the issue of the charging being really slow, you need to do it on a horde of monsters or you'll get nowhere.
So... maybe have the staff charge quicker depending on the level of the monster or the level of the staff? Maybe have monsters randomly drop soul containers? Just dropping ideas.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Redead-ITA » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:14 am

I would reccomend put the Download link in the Main thread instead of a twitter post
i've heard they usualy delete the really old ones so putting it here seems like a wiser choice
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Ribo Zurai » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Silly question, but how do you pick things up?
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby BoneofMalkav » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:34 pm

Ribo Zurai wrote:Silly question, but how do you pick things up?

Press E when your cross hair is close enough on them to show their stats.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Ribo Zurai » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:50 pm

BoneofMalkav wrote:
Ribo Zurai wrote:Silly question, but how do you pick things up?

Press E when your cross hair is close enough on them to show their stats.


I'm not sure if it's my GZDoom build but I'm not getting not even stats from the pickups when I look at it.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby fakemai » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:06 pm

Interesting mod... At present I'd call it more proof-of-concept but the core ideas have merit, and I'm at least interested to see how it develops.

First of all I appreciate the mostly streamlined UI, down to features like allowing you to see highlighted weapon on the ground and ones in the UI at the same time. It could do with a bit of polish in say a button to quick-shift a weapon to equips or at least defaulting to an open slot, and such. Going to have to agree that the Bloodscourge Demon Staff is a horribly flow-breaking weapon to use, it might make more sense that if you have one in your equips that killing enemies feed it energy similar to how the Soul Cube works. Generally though I think that taking the core "stat" system and adapting it to Doom weapons or at least a weapon set that works well with Doom, might be a better direction. Also while I like rifle weapons, having a 20-bullet-limit is extremely tight. Relatedly I would approve of having at least 4 weapon slots because 3 requires a lot of tedious weapon management. The other real annoyance is sifting through weapons that enemies have dropped since even on a vanilla mapset you end up with tons of crap lying around. Unfortunately I have no ideas on how to handle this, DRLA has a similar issue.

Ribo Zurai wrote:I'm not sure if it's my GZDoom build but I'm not getting not even stats from the pickups when I look at it.

I've noticed a couple of places where that's a bit iffy but for the most part it works. 3.8.2 vintage.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Sunbeam » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:31 am

Terensworth wrote:All in all, I'm still excited, what I've played I really liked. And I can see a ton of potential for this to work out well once the base mod is expanded.
Considering this is mostly a proof of concept... I've got a few things I'd like to point out that could use some work.

1. Enemy scaling, as it stands, leveling up around... 6 or 7 times gets you pitted against enemies that are just massive meatsacks. Monsters that are around your level are beyond tanky and it's a complete coin toss if you have a weapon that can take em down somewhat quickly.
As these are still base doom monsters it's mostly just an issue of tedium cause dodging their attacks is normally not that difficult, but in my experience of playing Doom 2 in which I am level 13... it's just agonizing, especially with pain elementals and lost souls in the mix.

2. SDUs/Backpacks, because of the wonky enemy health scaling, you will end up running very low on ammo very frequently. As the game currently only has 5 weapon types and the staff, you will likely not have ammo to work with as you can only stockpile a very miniscule amount comparetively, especially for the rifles.
Either add backpacks back in or have backpacks be replaced with SDUs for a random ammo type, might be a bit cruel considering the RNG nature but if the mod someday has a functioning store... maybe it won't be so bad in the long run.

3. Containers, another thing you can replace backpacks with are containers that drop alot of guns/shields and ammo, or you could just drop smaller boxes about instead of ammo or health/armor bonuses that drop a good amount of ammo or a gun/shield. This is really just a thing for the mod to nail the borderlands feel a little more, it's hardly a necessity provided the previous two points are looked at.

4. Demon Staff, unless I'm misundestanding this thing, it's a huge pain the use and is more likely to get you killed for charging it rather than do anything useful. The problem is that there's always hitscanners around and it's unlikely any monster will let you charge off it long enough to fire this thing. This also comes with the issue of the charging being really slow, you need to do it on a horde of monsters or you'll get nowhere.
So... maybe have the staff charge quicker depending on the level of the monster or the level of the staff? Maybe have monsters randomly drop soul containers? Just dropping ideas.

Enemies that have the same level as you should (in theory) not be any stronger than in the base game - as long as you have a somewhat decent weapon. But I can see the problem with higher level enemies. What do you think would be better? Reducing the number of higher level enemies or making each level give less of a boost?
Would preventing giving pain elementals a higher level than the player help? Currently the lost souls they spawn should always have the player level (or less).

Maybe it *is* time for the shop to come back. ;) Although I have yet another idea...

I like the idea of containers. This was a thing in Borderlands I always looked forward to. :)

Actually the higher the level of your Demon Staff the more souls you will absorb from the enemies. The important part is the difference between the staff's and the monster's level.
Also the staff is purely intended for large maps like "nuts" or similar ones. It's not intended to be useful on smaller maps.

Ribo Zurai wrote:I'm not sure if it's my GZDoom build but I'm not getting not even stats from the pickups when I look at it.

Do you have "autoaim" on in your settings? This might lead to problems. I did not state this, but BorderDoom is intended to be played with mouselook...

fakemai wrote:Interesting mod... At present I'd call it more proof-of-concept but the core ideas have merit, and I'm at least interested to see how it develops.

First of all I appreciate the mostly streamlined UI, down to features like allowing you to see highlighted weapon on the ground and ones in the UI at the same time. It could do with a bit of polish in say a button to quick-shift a weapon to equips or at least defaulting to an open slot, and such. Going to have to agree that the Bloodscourge Demon Staff is a horribly flow-breaking weapon to use, it might make more sense that if you have one in your equips that killing enemies feed it energy similar to how the Soul Cube works. Generally though I think that taking the core "stat" system and adapting it to Doom weapons or at least a weapon set that works well with Doom, might be a better direction. Also while I like rifle weapons, having a 20-bullet-limit is extremely tight. Relatedly I would approve of having at least 4 weapon slots because 3 requires a lot of tedious weapon management. The other real annoyance is sifting through weapons that enemies have dropped since even on a vanilla mapset you end up with tons of crap lying around. Unfortunately I have no ideas on how to handle this, DRLA has a similar issue.

Again the Demon Staff was intended to be used on maps with large amounts of enemies. However I can see the benefit of receiving souls when killing enemies. Although I think this might give you "endless" ammunition once you have enough to fire once.

What map (or mapset) gave you problems with the mod's weapons? I tried to balance them so all normal Doom maps can be played with the new weapons. There are weapons for short-medium range (pistol, shotgun, SMG), long range (rifle) and groups (rocket launcher, Demon Staff).

When using the rifle as a "main" weapon 20 bullets might not be enough. However as a support weapon it should suffice. Initially during development I had the idea for the player to be able to buy ammo upgrades (like in Borderlands). Maybe this would be helpful. Or you might want to pick a weapon with high damage to make each shot count more.

On a normal Doom map I never had so many dropped weapons that it became annoying. Which maps did you play?

____________________


Thank you all for your feedback!
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Terensworth » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:55 pm

Sunbeam wrote:Enemies that have the same level as you should (in theory) not be any stronger than in the base game - as long as you have a somewhat decent weapon. But I can see the problem with higher level enemies. What do you think would be better? Reducing the number of higher level enemies or making each level give less of a boost?
Would preventing giving pain elementals a higher level than the player help? Currently the lost souls they spawn should always have the player level (or less).

Maybe it *is* time for the shop to come back. ;) Although I have yet another idea...

I like the idea of containers. This was a thing in Borderlands I always looked forward to. :)

Actually the higher the level of your Demon Staff the more souls you will absorb from the enemies. The important part is the difference between the staff's and the monster's level.
Also the staff is purely intended for large maps like "nuts" or similar ones. It's not intended to be useful on smaller maps.


Hm... now you got me wondering if maybe I've just been extremely unlucky with guns, but... if so... for THIS long? Maybe the issue is more that gun level varience is too high so I keep getting weaker guns than I should? Maybe their stats don't scale correctly?
Something's off there, I can tell you that much, it's possible that maybe I just haven't had enough chances to get guns in the first place.

Fact is, if you add containers in, then that gets solved cause you get a good amount of guns right then and there, if you add a store, same thing. There's a ton of solutions for just that issue beyond just raising drop rates.

Also oooooooh, okay, so the demon staff already works that way, got it.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby BradmanX » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:27 pm

Played about half of an Obaddon episode with this and Champions so far, It's pretty fun, though I do kinda wish that there were more weapon types (Such as Machine Guns/Chainguns or Super Shotguns) and possibly randomized damage types and/or weapon abilities/Mods (Like Cluster/MIRV Rockets, Bullet Penetration, etc.).
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Cherno » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:45 pm

Just had another thought regarding gun variety. The player can hold one of each kind (shotgun, SMG etc) but each weapon that spawns has random values so when one is picked up, the values are simply switched so the currently held weapon's values are transferred to the ne picked up, and vice versa, simulating dropping the current weapon and equipping the newly found one.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Sunbeam » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:34 am

So a full week has passed and the mod got more downloads. Do any more people want to comment on this? What's the highest level you got?
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby fakemai » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:39 am

Should point out by the way that I've never played Borderlands and don't know its finer details, only the general idea of stats on weapons.

Sunbeam wrote:Again the Demon Staff was intended to be used on maps with large amounts of enemies.

The mod by design doesn't look well suited to slaughtermaps but if you want to have it as a weapon for those situations it really needs to be more automatic. An approach where you can retain multiple charges and it slowly recharges from just normal killing will need to be balanced but could work.

Sunbeam wrote:Which maps did you play?

I primarily play on vanilla mapsets but MAP09 of Evilution and MAP10 of Doom 2 have a lot of human enemies, and I suspect Plutonia will suck with its chaingunner hordes. More generally though it is a bit awkward to analyze weapons so an at-a-glance "grade" of some sort might be nice, like one that doesn't require mousing over the weapon and indicates its overall stats total. Doom generally is at odds with stalling the gameplay often, any interruptions have to be quick.

Beyond that though, at present it feels basic, which is fine while you're still nailing down the core idea, but ideally it gets a presentation make-over when that's done.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Skibbo » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:19 am

I just registered to this forum to give you my feedback on my recent playtime with BorderDoom.

First of all, your mod is phenomenal and very fun to play, I always wanted randomized weapons in my modded Doom experience.

I'm playing your mod with randomly generated maps:
http://oblige.sourceforge.net/
https://github.com/caligari87/ObAddon

Feedback:

The good:
- The randomized weapons are fun to find
- The stats of each weapon does make sense in terms of Doom gameplay
- The shield mechanic is well implemented and keeps me searching for better or alternative armor
- The enemy levels are kept balanced to your own levels
- The inventory is very intuitive and easy to use

The bad:
- I keep running out of ammo with all weapon types
- Some enemies are bullet sponges and are being best avoided (Mancubus, Hellknight, Baron of Hell)
- Sometimes I get very strong enemies 5 levels above me

Suggestions:
- Maybe raise the max ammo of all weapon types
- Some tweaking with the health of the bigger enemies
- Holding down the use button infront of a weapon lets you equip it immediately
- Maybe let stronger enemies above your level (2 or more) drop a weapon, or a weapon for a higher level, to give a reason and reward to fight them

Thanks for your awesome mod, I appreciate all the work you have done for it.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Solid-Head » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:05 pm

Great mod. Super fun to play. My playtrought was the first 2 episode of doom 1 with Mk Champions(and a bazillions small modifier) on hurt me plenty. I had no problem with ammo overall, but I usually look for secret area. I had no problem with too strong enemies because I kept changing my guns for a stronger version all the time. I remember running out of ammo for my main guns a couple of time, but the fists are very strong, so I manage everything. I finish at level 11, because I rush some level (Since there's no penalty for doing so) and I haven't notice any bug beside the soulsphere and megashpere not working with the hud.
Now for feedback

I like:
-That the menu is very intuitive
-That all guns feel good overall
-That the shield system is a great addition for the gameplay
-That higher level enemies wreck your face
-That any guns can spawn in any places

I dislike:
-That you didn't include your ACS Source (Very dislike :P)
-That you can't carry four weapons
-That the pistols are OP
-The Staff. its very good and I use it for some rough part. But I don't really like using it. A BFG with stats would be better.

I'd like to see:
-More guns. Mainly a Revolver(that use firerate), a Super Shotgun and a Plasma Rifle.
-Better sprites. Mainly for the smg and Sniper.
-The map number affecting the levels of the monsters. I want even more stronger monsters

There is in fact quite more that I would like you to do. Powerup could become inventory item that you can carry and use on field. There could be more of them too, especially the ones from skulltag that can affect your weapon, like spread or rage.
You should make that the pistols have a firerate again, because in their state they are better than the rifle if you click enough. They will still retain their uses, because they use another ammo type.
You could start the game with less ammo capacity, but backback items could upgrade it by a %. I was sad to see that reload speed for all guns and the number of pellets for shotgun isn't a thing for weapons stats, but I do understand that you couldn't implement this at that point. Thing is, in my playthrought I was mainly looking for raw power than anything else. Not once I kept two of same weapon, because there's little to no reason to.

At first I though this mod was incompatible with anything, but after I rename the file to a pk3, I could load way more stuff with it for some reason. It will still crash with anything that affect the monsters and weapons (which is normal and ok). I haven't yet experiment with what I can do with the files inside the mod. I think if I clone the pistol script, rename it to pistol2, use different sprites and sound and put it in the spawner, I could create variance in weapons. I'll report back on this if I have time.
(edit* Its didn't work be cause I need access to the main ACS. Was very hype when I saw this https://imgur.com/MZRVRsV but it just give you a normal pistol since I need to modify the pickup_base)

Overall thank you for the ride I had good fun with it. Don't give up on this, even if it take 6 year for another release 8-)
Last edited by Solid-Head on Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:52 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: BorderDooM: Doom + Borderlands gameplay (1.0 released!)

Postby Tito_tha_Raccoon » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:40 pm

It would be aweasome if you could makeit compatible with Doom ArsenalRL and colorful hell! :D
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