Tempered Arms for Hexen [Update v0.8.0]

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Tempered Arms for Hexen [Update v0.8.0]

Postby Lippeth » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:36 am

Image
A "Vanilla+" type weapon mod for Hexen that that tries to add a little more punch to the combat, adding alt fire attacks, a few new graphics, and reworked animations. No monsters have been modified, this should be compatible with any monster only mod.

This is still open for testing. Feedback, criticism and opinions are welcome!

Tempered Arms v0.8.0

Spoiler: Armory

Spoiler: Credits

Spoiler: Changelog
Last edited by Lippeth on Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:43 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5

Postby Whoah » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:10 am

This is a really cool mod! I'm a sucker for more Hexen mods, so I tried this out straight away. So far, the only outright issue I encountered, was the arc of death's altfire deals pretty much no damage. Like it took me easily at least 10 straight seconds to kill an Ettin, all the while he never entered his pain state. I have a couple of suggestions to mix things up, though:

-give bloodscourge a beam or flamethrower attack for the altfire. Beams shooting out of magic staffs is cool 100% of the time

-have the option to block with the shields, or at least some sort of defense boost when you have it equipped. I dunno, I just find it weird that these seasoned warriors have shields, but don't use them for their one intended purpose.

-maybe add some more character specific features, like a few traits/perks unique to them that give them an edge in combat. Like maybe the fighter has spiked armor that forces melee attackers into their painstate when they hit him, or the mage always regenerates mana slowly up to a minimum of 25, or the cleric gets double the effect of all healing items if either of his mana bars are full. Those are just suggestions of course, but more differences between the characters like that could be really cool.

Aaaaaand that's all I got! Keep up the good work, and I'll be sure to give more feedback if I come across any more issues
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Lippeth » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:54 am

Thanks for the feedback! Maybe I need to balance the mage's lightning altfire a little better, but the idea is to siphon mana with the trade-off being minimal damage. Maybe I can drain mana more slowly and have it do more damage. Or even slowly drain the mage's health and do full damage.

Great idea for the bloodscourge. I like the idea of a beam attack.

So the thing with the fighter's shield is that it does block projectiles and may send them back to the monster if timed right. But my own perception of the fighter is that he's so offensively minded, he has no reason to block at close range, or wear proper armor for that matter. So when given a shield his brain can only process it as a bludgeoning weapon. It's meant to be somewhat humorous but still lore friendly. As for the cleric, maybe I should implement a blocking mechanic, it functions too similarly to the fighter (only weaker) and doesn't make as much sense for him to do that.

I like your thinking about special character traits. At one point I had the mage regenerate mana, but removed it for the mana siphon attack. I don't want to change the game play too much, but little quirks and abilities that match their personality might be really cool. Thanks again for the excellent input!
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Whoah » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:13 pm

No problem! I didn't notice the arc of death's altfire stole mana from enemies. Probably shoulda read more thoroughly. Perhaps a mana siphoning ability should be relegated to the starter weapon somehow to keep it relevant in the player's arsenal, and the arc of death could have a more offensive/defensive-based altfire, like just shooting a straight lightning bolt or created a bunch of lightning orbs that rotate around him, or even keep the current altfire but buff the damage. Or instead of a mana siphoning attack, the mage could regenerate mana slowly when he has his wand equipped. OR keep the current altfire as it is, but have it force enemies into their pain state so players don't get stomped while trying to get some mana. This is all just brainstorming of course, no pun intended
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby FelesNoctis » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:25 pm

Whoah wrote:-have the option to block with the shields, or at least some sort of defense boost when you have it equipped. I dunno, I just find it weird that these seasoned warriors have shields, but don't use them for their one intended purpose.

Lippeth wrote:So the thing with the fighter's shield is that it does block projectiles and may send them back to the monster if timed right. But my own perception of the fighter is that he's so offensively minded, he has no reason to block at close range, or wear proper armor for that matter. So when given a shield his brain can only process it as a bludgeoning weapon. It's meant to be somewhat humorous but still lore friendly. As for the cleric, maybe I should implement a blocking mechanic, it functions too similarly to the fighter (only weaker) and doesn't make as much sense for him to do that.

This is the main thing that came to mind while doing some testing this morning. I haven't run into any technical issues yet, but I started as Cleric, and did think it was weird that I was bashing but not able to block. I don't know if cleric also have the ability to deflect projectiles like you mentioned for the fighter? If they do, I wasn't able to get the timing right.

I think I agree with your headcanon for the fighter's personality, and would say the opposite could be true for the cleric: a stronger focus on survival. Rather than the shield bash, give them the ability to block? Maybe similar to the fighter's mechanic, a "perfect block" (within a small game tic period) would be full damage immunity rather than just reduced, could stun a melee attacker, and also deflect projectiles against ranged? So people are encouraged to properly time their blocks.
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Whoah » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:54 pm

Yeah, I agree. I think parrying and having an almost dark souls like method of defense would be a really cool mechanic
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Lippeth » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:18 pm

I love those ideas for the cleric, Feles. A focus on defense and vitality that requires a bit of skill.

Dark Souls, that's an interesting way to look at it. I think I like that approach, and it would be essential to get the timing just right and not be too easily overwhelmed if surrounded. This is a great direction, thanks guys!
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Whoah » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:51 pm

Glad to hear it! Looking forward to where you decide to take this
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Lagi » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:45 pm

Nice tone down weapon sets. Good visual concepts.
I like the most Mage staff poke on alt fire. With mage hand, and electric spark, and that you can charge it - great.
Also book for ice spell is a nice touch, that distinct frost from arc of death.

weapons could have better define role. I would take paper & think about it the most.
whats the difference between punch & sword slash? f.ex. punch could force pain, while sword would be main, higher damage attack.

Or cleric serpent staff has mace alt fire [visually ok, however I would prefer staff hit (like Mage staff poke)] but why would I hit with mace, if primary fire is also healing me in melee? Also to avoid cognitive dissonance whatever function you add to mace alt fire in 2 weapon, should be the same for 1 weapon.

warrior cannot throw axe? this would hinder his play-through, not being able to do range attack. Plus take into account that people often playing other levels than vanilla.

top part of cleric shield, should be visible in ready stance.

check centaur ice sprite: it has wrong offset
Spoiler:
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Crudux Cruo » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:58 pm

Fighter
the sword should be slower but do a lot of cuts in its attack to give more chances to stun. the damage is fine. the range is literally like 20 feet away and feels rediculous.
the axe seems too much like the cleric's mace. maybe make it a bit more aggressive? maybe the sword and axe could be combined somehow?
the hammer seems fine to me although instead of hammers maybe a large flame wave?
Quietus primary could be a stronger, cutting blow with magic rather than the AOE cloud effect? idk. maybe a combo that includes a thrust for distance, but PRIMARY WOULD BE MELEE.
The secondary seems fine.

Cleric
The mace seems fine.
The serpent staff is fine, but id recommend the mace be an AOE health drain effect that pushes enemies back, and that the graphic would be similar to the charged axe (Green outline)
The fire spell seems great.
The wraithverge is boring. maybe like a soul beam that does precision damage at range? or maybe it could "convert" an enemy?

Mage
The staff seems fine.
The ice spell i'm not sure the point of the secondary attack because there are disks of repulsion plentiful. maybe a ice spike wave that shoots a short distance in front of the player? or maybe you could summon a friendly wendingo?
the arc seems fine but the secondary is very weak and gives A LOT of mana. idk maybe less mana gain and more damage?
The bloodscourge is fairly unoriginal. Would like to see maybe dark flamethrower like effect?

otherwise it's a rather fine remaster/reinvisioning of hexercize and hexen.
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Captain J » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:14 am

Very impressive and interesting mod! Animations are so smooth yet powerful, i'm having fun with it! It changes a few things, but are very effective for gameplay. And here are some feedback:

- Thanks for the smooth animations but i think Timon's Axe's side swinging and Secondary mode for Hammer of Retribution need some more work.

- Frost Shards' first person sprite is a Tomb, but its pickup is still a Scroll. I think it should be the Arc of Death's pickup sprite.

- Bloodscourge's Projectiles disappear when they hit the watery surface.

Neat and perfect mod overall!
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen v0.5.1

Postby Lippeth » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:29 am

Thanks for all the feedback guys! This is a lot to chew, but I'll try and address everything.
Lagi wrote:whats the difference between punch & sword slash? f.ex. punch could force pain, while sword would be main, higher damage attack.

Strong attack for punch knocks the enemy back, strong attack for sword pulls the enemy in and does more damage. The sword also has slightly more damage overall. I've had bad luck with forcepain. A forcepain hit will wake up a dormant afrit and make it invulnerable, and will stun lock centaurs until you stop attacking and does no damage.
Lagi wrote:Or cleric serpent staff has mace alt fire [visually ok, however I would prefer staff hit (like Mage staff poke)] but why would I hit with mace, if primary fire is also healing me in melee? Also to avoid cognitive dissonance whatever function you add to mace alt fire in 2 weapon, should be the same for 1 weapon.

Honestly I really just like the mace and wanted to see more of it. A staff swing or poke would be cool. I also really like Crudux Cruo's idea which I'll address below.
Lagi wrote:warrior cannot throw axe? this would hinder his play-through, not being able to do range attack. Plus take into account that people often playing other levels than vanilla.

I would hope that most mappers take the fighter's short range into account when making maps, or just give him the hammer early on. Axe throw is cool, I really like it in your mod, but it deviates a little too much for vanilla play and for my personal taste.
Lagi wrote:top part of cleric shield, should be visible in ready stance.

It is a really cool idea, but there's something about seeing two weapon sprites at the same time moving in unison that really takes me out of the game. I suppose if I animate a walk cycle or give proper texture definitions it could be done, but it makes more sense to keep the shield lowered until you use it.
Lagi wrote:check centaur ice sprite: it has wrong offset
Spoiler:

This mod doesn't contain any monster sprites or code. I don't know what's going on there. I'll check and see if the projectiles have anything to do with it.
Crudux Cruo wrote:Fighter
the sword should be slower but do a lot of cuts in its attack to give more chances to stun. the damage is fine. the range is literally like 20 feet away and feels rediculous.
the axe seems too much like the cleric's mace. maybe make it a bit more aggressive? maybe the sword and axe could be combined somehow?
the hammer seems fine to me although instead of hammers maybe a large flame wave?
Quietus primary could be a stronger, cutting blow with magic rather than the AOE cloud effect? idk. maybe a combo that includes a thrust for distance, but PRIMARY WOULD BE MELEE.
The secondary seems fine.

I'll see how the sword can be reworked, and address the range. I'm reworking the cleric's mace to be more like a shield, so hopefully that differentiates the two. I like the sword and axe idea. For the hammer's alt attack I'm thinking of like a seeking Maulotaur floor flame attack that bursts into upward flames for an aoe attack. For the Quietus I'll keep tweaking until something sticks.
Crudux Cruo wrote:Cleric
The mace seems fine.
The serpent staff is fine, but id recommend the mace be an AOE health drain effect that pushes enemies back, and that the graphic would be similar to the charged axe (Green outline)
The fire spell seems great.
The wraithverge is boring. maybe like a soul beam that does precision damage at range? or maybe it could "convert" an enemy?

I really like the idea for the staff's mace attack. I've tried giving the graphic a green glow, but nothing has ever looked great so I'll have to keep trying when there's time.
Crudux Cruo wrote:Mage
The staff seems fine.
The ice spell i'm not sure the point of the secondary attack because there are disks of repulsion plentiful. maybe a ice spike wave that shoots a short distance in front of the player? or maybe you could summon a friendly wendingo?
the arc seems fine but the secondary is very weak and gives A LOT of mana. idk maybe less mana gain and more damage?
The bloodscourge is fairly unoriginal. Would like to see maybe dark flamethrower like effect?

Good point about the frost shield thing. Originally (and the code is still in there) the secondary attack creates a frost clone of the mage, using his frozen sprite and a bit of icy smoke, and acts as a shield for a few seconds and then explodes into ice. Maybe I can bring that back. And I agree the mage's secondary lightning attack needs some attention. As for the Bloodscourge, Whoah had a great idea for a beam attack that I want to try out.
Captain J wrote:- Thanks for the smooth animations but i think Timon's Axe's side swinging and Secondary mode for Hammer of Retribution need some more work.

- Frost Shards' first person sprite is a Tomb, but its pickup is still a Scroll. I think it should be the Arc of Death's pickup sprite.

- Bloodscourge's Projectiles disappear when they hit the watery surface.

I agree about the hammer, I'm going to try a whole different approach, and I actually like how the axe swings are now, but I can try and rethink it a little.

In my mind the frost shard scroll is taken off the rollers and put into the tome as a page. I know that's flimsy, but I'm afraid that I'll confuse the player if I make the sprite a book, although if I give it some sweet frosty graphics it might be fine. I also might add a shield sprite to the fighter's axe so the altfire is clearer.

I'll address the Bloodscourge projectiles as well.

My progress so far:
I've completely reworked the cleric's shield mechanic, it now blocks all attacks and can either be swung to knock back enemies or held to defend for a short time until releasing another swing which knocks back enemies again. The cleric also goes transparent while blocking to simulate having the Icon of the Defender. I've imitated the fade almost perfectly, and I did this to give him a little more personality, like he says a prayer or something, and to make a little more sense as to why he can now block attacks from areas the shield doesn't cover. I'll post an updated version very soon, but I still want to do a few more things as well.
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen [Update v0.6.1]

Postby Lippeth » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:23 pm

So I added a glowing effect to the cleric's serpent staff altfire. It might be too much or poorly executed, I can always try again. I also tried making it siphon health like CStaffCheck, but wasn't happy with the result so I left it alone. The current alt fire is more useful at full health because it does more damage than the staff's close range attack. I also attempted to change the altfire attack to what I called a plague fog, acting similarly to the cleric's flechette, but reverted back to the mace swing for now.

I'm very happy with the cleric's shield, though it does make game easier. Using flechettes with the shield raised makes you immune to the poison cloud, making centaur encounters much more manageable. I'm open to different ways of implementing shield blocking.

All other changes are in the original post's changelog.
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen [Update v0.7.0]

Postby Neccronixis » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:47 pm

Very well made weapon mod, simplistic yet so much fun.

The Cleric's secondary firestorm attack is contingent on sector height which means there is a delay - can you make the attack near instantaneous or begin from a fixed height?
What about a chargeable, primary slice attack for the Quietus that can be used similarly when it runs out of mana too, but deals less damage?
Would you consider making this mod work with DOOM to make it compatible with monster mods and map packs?
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Re: Tempered Arms for Hexen [Update v0.7.0]

Postby MaxRideWizardLord » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:28 am

A lot of weapons are exact clone of Hexercise, I don't quite yet understand the purpose of this mod so far.

However, you made both wraithverge and quietus is quite op, while blood scourge weaker than vanila. Wraithverge now consumed 15 ammo of each instead of 18, yet ghosts just as strong as even, and alt fire consumes 5 ammo YET it does still spawn ghosts that do everything exactly the primary attack does so it cleans whole map in one shot yet barely takes any ammo. The ripping made quietus inherently overpowered and it can kill Korax in just a 2-3 hits, same for it's primary attack that is simply too overpowered in damage. Bloodscourge, on other hand, lost it's ability to pierce through enemies, which was the primary niche of bloodscourge, without it it's just an weakened rocket launcher.
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