[3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

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Re: [3.2!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Tartlman » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:09 pm

Honestly, I don't get why people hate the machreaper so much. I find that you just have to have trust in the fact that it can one shot cacodemons. Also I think the set is made amazing mostly by the rocket launcher - considering that the RL is often used for direct hits anyway, that boosted damage... oh yes.
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Re: [3.2!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby IDKrisis » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:36 pm

I suppose my main problem with the machreaper is that I keep trying to use it like the super shotgun and I keep trying to take out mancubi and revenants with it, which never goes well.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Yholl » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:59 pm

3.3 is out, bringing a bunch of bugfixes and stuff. Nothing spectacular or gamebreaking big changes.

Dr. Shotgun wrote:I see. That's fair enough. Though now I'm curious as to why that design choice was made.
Because it makes walking speed actually walking speed.

IDKrisis wrote:I suppose my main problem with the machreaper is that I keep trying to use it like the super shotgun and I keep trying to take out mancubi and revenants with it, which never goes well.
Use it like a melee weapon. It has massive damage dropoff over a short distance.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Dr. Shotgun » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:12 pm

Having played around a bit with the BTSX set, here are my two cents on the machreaper:

I think I have to take the side that doesn't enjoy it so much, but that's not because of the concept. Using it as a melee weapon for max damage is fine. I think what really brings it down is the fact that it uses three shells (I know they're not called shells in the BTSX set but I'm going to call them shells). That's really expensive, especially without a backpack. The regular SSG, at 50 shells, nets you 25 shots assuming you don't pick up any more. The machreaper, at 50, nets you only 16.

This means that using it on anything less than a cacodemon is officially a waste of ammo. And the rest of the weapons don't cover that weakness, meaning we now lack a reliable pinky-buster. The fist takes too long to deploy and is usually insufficient even at max charge to kill a pinky in one go (without a berserk). Which, against swarms of them, is not ideal. I get that the 3-shell cost is to try and counterbalance how powerful it is, but given that there's nothing to replace the vanilla SSG's crowd-control capabilities, and that it is incredibly easy to whiff a shot, I think that nerf might be too powerful itself.

Unfortunately the arc-blaster doesn't really step up either. Not only because using it means less shells for the machreaper, but also because I think it needs to have either a buff to its firing speed or a buff to its damage. I know both are comparable to the normal shotgun, but the fact that it fires a projectile changes things. Now it effectively takes more time to kill something because in addition to pumping the weapon, it needs to also travel towards your target. And even when it hits it doesn't deal that much damage. And against hitscanners that's also not ideal. I've had to resort to using the pulse rifle for everything, and never actually using the arc-blaster once the rifle is picked up.

That's my opinion on the machreaper/arc-blaster thing. I enjoy the rest of the weapons in the BTSX set, as well as all the other weapon sets. Hellbound's is probably my favorite and it's for a reason I can't really pin down. I like the sleek look of the TNT set, I like how the doom 2 set deals more consistent damage compared to their vanilla versions, I like how the Ancient Aliens set actually makes Ancient Aliens possible without being forced to resort to save-scumming... Really this is one of my favorite gameplay mods I ever had the pleasure of playing. I only got it recently since I only thought it would be a fun distraction. But having played it I was surprised by how much fun I was having. It's not that I expected it to be bad I just didn't expect it to be this good.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Kaeoschassis » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:05 am

Having played through BTSXE1 with this weapon set multiple times I can comfortably say that you do have a "reliable pinky buster" / crowd control weapon. It's the rocket launcher replacement. It's fairly quick despite the delay, still has decent splash despite the reduction, and absolutely annihilates anything it hits directly. You don't take self-damage from it, so you can use it like a shotty, and most importantly, BTSXE1 absolutely chuffing DROWNS you in rocket pickups. They are everywhere, from the second map onwards. I'm not saying you could use the thing exclusively, but you can sure as heck use it a lot. You need to adjust your mindset since the weapon-set was balanced around BTSX's ammo pickups. It took me a little bit to realise, but it definitely works.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Dr. Shotgun » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:08 am

Fine, but what I said about the arc-blaster still stands. As it is it is more or less useless due to the extended time to kill because of its new projectile.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Papaga » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:36 pm

Anything bad about the Machreaper is nullified by its ability to oneshot Revenants and interrupt Archviles 100% of the time. It's a portable dump truck for those absolute units that normally survive too long.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby TheOldKingCole » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:18 pm

Thanks for the update. I know I already said this before, but can we please get eviternity class?
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Tartlman » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:09 am

TheOldKingCole wrote:Thanks for the update. I know I already said this before, but can we please get eviternity class?

It's not out of the question for after a couple more updates (4.0 won't have it, i believe). Ancient Aliens was released fairly recently when a class was made for it, so I don't see why Eviternity can't, seeing as to how well it was received.

Dr. Shotgun wrote:The fist takes too long to deploy and is usually insufficient even at max charge to kill a pinky in one go (without a berserk). Which, against swarms of them, is not ideal.

So you'd rather use vanilla fists to fight a pinky?
I don't see what you mean too long to deploy, all weapon switching is much faster and the powerfist is much more spammable than the vanilla fist if you click quickly.

Dr. Shotgun wrote:Unfortunately the arc-blaster doesn't really step up either.

The projectiles travel pretty fast, I've never had any issue using it the same way as the normal shotgun. Plus, the perfect accuracy is a bonus.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Dr. Shotgun » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:47 am

Tartlman wrote:I don't see what you mean too long to deploy, all weapon switching is much faster and the powerfist is much more spammable than the vanilla fist if you click quickly.


"Deploy" was probably the wrong word. I meant as far as charging it to a point where it will actually do significant damage/guarantee a kill, which spamming does not help with. When swarmed with pinkies you need them to die quickly and reliably before you get cornered and munched.

Tartlman wrote:The projectiles travel pretty fast, I've never had any issue using it the same way as the normal shotgun. Plus, the perfect accuracy is a bonus.


The accuracy is nice, yes, I will concede that. But you automatically lose in a quick-draw showdown with any of the zombies. Even if you fire first, you will take damage before they have a chance to flinch. It's particularly bad at mid-range chaingunners, where they have no problems hitting you, but it's going to take a second before they themselves take damage. And it's usually not enough to kill them. At least with the vanilla SG you have a good chance at stunning them long enough to get out of their line of sight. But because it's a projectile, the accuracy ends up doubling as a curse because they could walk out of its path if you yourself take wide cover.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Gez » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:34 pm

Tartlman wrote:It's not out of the question for after a couple more updates (4.0 won't have it, i believe). Ancient Aliens was released fairly recently when a class was made for it, so I don't see why Eviternity can't, seeing as to how well it was received.

Obviously because Eviternity needs six different classes, one per episode. Obviously.


Jokes aside, I'd like to suggest going for the old coolness instead of the new hotness and making a Perdition's Gate guy and a Hell to Pay guy. Especially the HTP guy to get better weapon sprites for the slot 5, 6, 7 weapons, because blue tube, blue fork, orange fork kind of underwhelming.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby TheOldKingCole » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:19 pm

I also just had the idea of a 2002 guy. I know 2002 is based on DOOM 1 and thus doesn't have a supershotgun, but that can easily be fixed with a random spawner.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby TheOldKingCole » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:05 pm

Hey Sgt. Shivers, for my mod that I've been working on, would you mind if I used some of your old assets from Eternal DOOMER?
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby Tartlman » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:15 am

Have you ever thought about how each group of weaponsets has a (likely unintentional) theme? The first three were all official wads (intentional), then the next three have lots of guest mappers, and then the most recent three are all slaughter-mappy. Just something neat I realized.

On a side note - for the machreaper, use it as a combo weapon. Machreaper + charged pulse rifle or charged pistol shot should kill a hell knight reliably.
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Re: [3.3!] FINAL DOOMER +

Postby DarkQuill » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:45 am

Gez wrote:I'd like to suggest going for the old coolness instead of the new hotness and making a Perdition's Gate guy and a Hell to Pay guy. Especially the HTP guy to get better weapon sprites for the slot 5, 6, 7 weapons, because blue tube, blue fork, orange fork kind of underwhelming.


+1 to this. I love HtP.
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