DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

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DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Morcillete » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:27 am

Here I will post a series of maps (or at least one) I am making specifically designed to be played with Vaecrious' Hideous Destructor mod supporting both single player and up to 8 player coop modes.

For the moment I have only made one map (i.e. mission 1) which is a proof of concept for the general design that the rest of the maps would have.
Due to this, the map is pretty much in alpha states and a lot of balance and polishing changes should be made. However, currently I don't have much time to play, so it is pretty difficult for me to test it properly right now. Furthermore, I cannot play any coop games for the moment and I have no actual idea of how the map behaves in a coop session. So, the whole point of this is that any criticism, in any shape or form, is really welcome!

The main concepts this map is built upon are:

- Random minion placement. Not only the kind and number of weak enemies will change in each session, but also the actual placement and their behaviour (aggressive or ambush). This is made via "jumping random spawners" (if this has been done before and is called in a different way please tell me). This spawners perform a certain sampling of the map (similarly to a brownian motion) before actually spawning anything. This method is only used with weak monsters for balance purposes, but this could be potentially used with anything. Also there are two different jumping random spawners defined, one for indoors placement and one for outdoors. Right now these jumping spawners can spawn different kinds of groups with different behaviours:
Single trooper (aggressive or ambush): one zombieman.
Patrol (aggressive or ambush): two zombiemen.
Squad (aggressive or ambush): one sergeant, two zombiemen and a chaingunner.
Skirmiser demons (always aggressive): a random number of imps and/or demons.

- Customizable difficulty. The original idea was to define the jumping random spawners arguments via server cvars (in fact I left the cvarinfo.txt there in case it end up working), but I have no idea of how to pass those cvars to the decorate script. Until I find out how to do so, difficulty can be customized by editing the decorate.txt file in the monster spawners .pk7 file. The idea is to be able to customize difficulty for coop missions with varying number of players without having to edit the map itself. Apart from this, the spawn non-minion monsters is regulated via the regular skill option.

- Making long range engagements and CQB are equally relevant. I tried to make the map as big as I could but this has led to a couple of interesting problems.
First of all, I had rendering issues with really wide landscapes, so I assume there is a render distance limit built in in the engine (correct me if I'm wrong because I really don't know). I solved this by convoluting the shape of the map so the player could never reach a line of sight long enough to reproduce this issue.
When the general structure of the map was done and I started messing with the spawners I observed an unexpected (for me, obviously) behavior of the AI. It seems that AI has a radius in which it can detect an obstacle blocking its sight. This implies that, when an enemy is too far from any obstacle, it will not detect any obstacles at all and will start shooting, hitting a wall it cannot see. The only solution I was able to find was to significantly reduce de size of the map and take care that there was no areas with wide clear sights (that's the reason of the S shape of the roads in the map).

- Make multiple paths available. The map is designed so that it can be beaten in following different paths depending on player preferences.

Download Mission 1 v1.1:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1hk7j0zvmP1RF9GdGRCUWZFMTA

Change log:
Spoiler:


Download custom classes for a more militaristic approach (OPTIONAL):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1hk7j0zvmP1RTZ2TV9SLW9ZNVU

Load order:

hd.pk7
DR_mission_1_1.1.wad
Other files

Hideous Destructor Addons:
Spoiler:


To-do list:
- Create several difficulty files to choose from.
- Balance.
- Improve my bonus replacement addon uppon which the loot distribution is made in the map.
- Test if it actually works in coop.
- Polish the jumping spawners.
- Make more complex spawners and cover a wider range of monsters.
- Learn how to pass cvars values to decorate scripts.
- If this concept works, make more maps.


Mission objectives and map (can be reached in game via F1 help screen):
Spoiler:


Help needed:

- Testing: I would really appreciate any feedback of both sp and coop!
- English: I am obviously not a native speaker, so if anyone can check at least the mission objective text it would be great.
Last edited by Morcillete on Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:41 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Fort of Hard Knox » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:25 am

Can't wait to try this when I get home this evening. Random spawners are going to make HD about a thousand time more interesting.

Also you English was just fine.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Silentdarkness12 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:54 am

If I had one major complaint, it would be that there is pretty much zero support for the Doomed Guy, Security or any class loadout that doesn't start you off with a powerful weapon.

EDIT: I'm starting to think that extreme-long range scenarios are extremely unenjoyable in Hideous Destructor, especially since the big open area between the buildings have literally zero cover. Hideous Destructor works best when there's physical cover you can use.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby blood » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:09 am

Wasn't able to launch the mode even by reading the readme.txt, if you could give a more accurate way to make us launch it with the order of the files.
Last edited by blood on Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Silentdarkness12 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:33 am

blood wrote:Wasn't able to launch the mode even by reading the readme.txt, if you could give a more accurate way to make us launch it with the order of the files.
I'm not a fan of mods with tons of different files anyway.


hd.pk7
DR_Mission_1_1.0
DR_Mission_1_vvpck_extract_1.0
DR_Mission_1_1.0_monster_spawners(optional)
DR_Mission_1_obj_map
And hopefully a music wad of your choice.

Done.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby blood » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:49 am

I dont have that hd.pk7, I've "HD_bonus_replacer_1.3.pk7" (maybe that you are talking about it), even with it, I launched it with the order that you said, and it's not working I even tried with doom explorer, and it's still not working, here is the problem I get:

Code: Select allExpand view
Script error, "HD_bonus_replacer_1.3.pk7:decorate.txt" line 2:
Replaced type 'HelmFrag' not found for HelmFragModded
Script error, "HD_bonus_replacer_1.3.pk7:decorate.txt" line 15:
Replaced type 'BlueFrag' not found for BlueFragModded
Script error, "DR_mission_1_1.0_monster_spawners.pk7:decorate.txt" line 155:
Parent type 'ZombieStormtrooper' not found in AmbushZombieMan
Script error, "DR_mission_1_1.0_monster_spawners.pk7:decorate.txt" line 159:
Parent type 'UndeadJackbootman' not found in AmbushSergeant
Script error, "DR_mission_1_1.0_monster_spawners.pk7:decorate.txt" line 163:
Parent type 'DragonGuard' not found in AmbushChaingunGuy
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby wildweasel » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:02 am

Hd.pk7 is the actual Hideous Destructor mod by Vaecrius. You will need that.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Morcillete » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:20 pm

Updated the main post:
- Single file distribution with only one optional file.
- Updated the loot code to use the code present in the 1.4 version of my bonus replacer addon.
- Full version no longer exists. Just combine the new version with any Hideous Destructor addons you want.

The new file distribution is the answer to blood's complaint. I think he was right, there was no need to have all the non optional files to be loaded separately.

If I had one major complaint, it would be that there is pretty much zero support for the Doomed Guy, Security or any class loadout that doesn't start you off with a powerful weapon.

Well that is absolutely true. The thing is that I built the whole map with a militaristic approach in mind, so it is designed to be played with the 6 squad-like custom classes (which was also a try to create different roles for coop).

EDIT: I'm starting to think that extreme-long range scenarios are extremely unenjoyable in Hideous Destructor, especially since the big open area between the buildings have literally zero cover. Hideous Destructor works best when there's physical cover you can use.

To be honest I don't agree with this point. In long range shooting monsters perform quite poorly and it is quite unlikely to be hit. I think I almost never die in the outdoor areas except when a lot of monsters spawn with direct sight to the insertion point. I think the key points to win long range engagements are:
- Crouch. In doom it is almost like going prone and it will reduce a lot the chances of getting hit.
- While crouching, use small covers like the pile of debris at the start or the sides of the roads.
- Chaingunners are very dangerous, always kill them first if you can and avoid long direct engagements against them.

If these ideas do not change your feeling about the lack of cover, just let me know and I will add some rocks to the sides of the roads and see if that mitigate the problem.

Take into account that this is the first map I make so any idea like this is really welcome. Thanks!

EDIT: ALERT: The smg zombie replacement that was present in the old full version was bugged. The new version of the addon seems to have fixed the problem.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Silentdarkness12 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:27 pm

I would recommend you add some sort of mechanism to block enemies from wandering directly in front of the insertion point. Either slap down a linedef that blocks enemies, or use a script that assigns TIDs to certain enemies and gives them patrol routes using Thing_SetGoal.

Also, perhaps leave behind a spawn for a ZM66 rifle and a spare mag, just in case. You'd be surprised how adamantly some players pick Doomed Guy : P

As far as the cover situation is concerned, if a chaingunner spawns outside, and is far enough away that you won't spot him immediately, chances are high that you will become swiss cheese. Crouching does very little to mitigate sudden rapid-fire death from what feels like a mile away.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Matt » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:55 pm

Just "beat" this with like 10 deaths and seven rifleman bots. Very nice - kind of like a cross between Operation: Iron Dragon and Downtown.

Also learned that it's possible to one-shot a cyberdemon with the HEAT. (I am not changing this. I am, however, getting rid of the chaingunners' aimbot because that is ridiculous.)

Some thoughts:
- Those are some pretty tall sinks.
- Can we get a checkpoint or something just after the tunnel leading into HQ?
- Southern room of HQ seems to be completely inaccessible - I push the gate button between it and the rest of HQ, it lights up for a moment and nothing happens.
- Is the northwest room in HQ supposed to be a secret? I can't get in there at all either.
- Those are some wonderfully brutal fights in the dark poison rooms.
- Maybe just a little bit more rough terrain and other detail in the outdoors? Differently lit areas and piles of debris would really add to this.
- Never been so satisfied with a krangling rocket kill.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Silentdarkness12 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:35 pm

Vaecrius wrote:I am, however, getting rid of the chaingunners' aimbot because that is ridiculous.)


^

^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIIIIISSSSSS

EDIT: Thank you for linking to my addon thread!

(I feel like it's being ignored for the most part D: )
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Matt » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:18 pm

Weird bug I'm getting: if I run using
Code: Select allExpand view
gzdoom -file hd/_zip downloads/DR_mission_1_1.1.pk7 -nomusic -warp 01
the game starts off paused for a half second and when it unpauses I'm stuck without mlook. If I start the game normally or idclev this does not happen - only with -warp.

Anyone else getting this?
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby phantombeta » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:25 pm

@Vaecrius
Might be the game hanging for a little at the start. When that happens sometimes mouse polling fucks up. Killing yourself should fix it, but cycling in_mouse (not sure if this is the correct CVar) might fix it if that doesn't.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Big C » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:53 pm

Hey Morc, just wanted to say I like this map! A few suggestions on how to make it look and play a bit prettier though:

-More terrain variation, as Vae said.
-On that note, some colored lighting in areas with toxic waste. Some variation in lighting in general in the outdoors would do wonders. Also, perhaps some ambient sounds? If there's a way to make a script that makes a howling wind noise whenever you're in a sector with a sky texture, that'd be *terrific*. And maybe some machinery/computer sounds indoors, and dripping water or ambient echoing sounds in the tunnels. And bubbling noises in the mining facility waste areas.
-Remove that implausibly gigantic roof from the external garage(?) area to the south, add some fencing, turn it into an outdoor garage instead of...Whatever it is. Turn the corner pillars into guard towers. Right now it just doesn't feel like it has any sense of place whereas the other facilities look like they have a recognizable purpose.
-A few new exterior spawn patrol types: Aerial recon (a cacodemon and two lost souls), and air support (a pain elemental and two cacodemons).
-New all-purpose spawn type: Heavy infantry (hell knights and revenants) and light armor (mancubi and arachnotrons). Also, roving imp pack (half a dozen or more imps---their types are randomized anyway, so just spawning a bunch of them should make for a noteworthy encounter).
-Rare spawn type: A ninja pirate either down in the tunnels or somewhere in the bases.
-VERY rare spawn patrol type: A lone arch vile.

I don't mean to impose with all those suggestions for new spawns, but as things are the map uses some parts of the bestiary way more than others, and some added monster variety would make for an interesting challenge.

Vaecrius wrote:Also learned that it's possible to one-shot a cyberdemon with the HEAT. (I am not changing this. I am, however, getting rid of the chaingunners' aimbot because that is ridiculous.)


GOOD. I swear, chaingunners have killed me at long range more than any other enemy, including arachnotrons and revenants.

The arachnotrons were hard-hitting, but fair---if you figure out their 'trick' and see them before they see you, it's pretty easy to avoid their attack. Chaingunners on the other hand are much better at acquiring moving targets, fire MUCH faster, and even if you survive their initial salvo you'll probably be bleeding out of your everything and barely able to respond, whereas getting singed by an arachnotron leaves you shaken but usually not stirred (provided you don't catch on fire, too).

I think a good baseline for the chaingunners' accuracy is the average player's accuracy with a Vulcanette from a non-braced standstill at the range map---if I stand back a bit from the counter (to simulate firing from a stand-up-stand-still position as opposed to a braced position, and I'm assuming the chaingunners are firing from a stand-up) and switch to high-speed mode, even with the rickety recoil I can still hit the closest crate-target. If I switch to the lower ROF, I can consistently hit the second-closest crate-target. Any further than that and I'm more or less only able to lay down suppressive fire. The Vulcanette does not have a scope, and thus would likely have a hard time making any sort of precision shots, even braced.

I think a good attack code for the chaingunners would be to have them fire measured (but still long) bursts at a distance, and when they get into close range (i.e. the range at which shotgunners stop trying to fanatically rush you and actually start attacking) they switch to high-ROF and attempt to much more aggressively hose you down.
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Re: DOOM RECON: missions for hideous destructor 18/Jun/2015

Postby Matt » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:35 am

PB: That's about right - respawning even in a botmatch seems to fix it.

I'll suggest that Big C's suggestions for monster spawns be implemented for a subsequent map - I think this middle-of-nowhere skirmish works best with gun-toting mooks.

I've already changed the chaingunners but they might still be a bit too accurate compared to your baseline (which I agree with). Not sure if I want to nerf them too much, though, as they (the fixed ones on my hard drive) are relatively "easy" to avoid already.
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