In which mansplaining can be observed

[VICE]

I may be a heavily-bearded male, and a fan of the gory, testosterone-filled game that is Doom, but I am definitely not a fan of masculinity. It breeds a lot of anger, ignorance and irrationality, and as an individual who loves the scientific method (albeit maybe a slightly bastardized version,) I cannot condone it. I try to treat everyone with as much respect and compassion as humanly possible... And no, it's not because I want to get in bed with anyone. I just want to be a decent goddamn human being.

I disagree with your notion that masculinity breeds anger etc.
Members of both sexes have the capacity for anger, ignorance and irrationality (or else period jokes wouldn't be a thing). Men and women tend to express these ideas differently due to biological and epigenetic differences. These nagative qualities you mentioned aren't inherently masculine.

I think it's a shame that an increasing number of men are "not fans of masculity" as you put it. Some are even apologetic about their masculinity, and I think that's bullshit, the most apologetic types are usually the ones suffering from "nice guy syndrome" (I was there in my teens).
Maculinity is inheritly driven, competitive and, when used properly, positively agressive. Those things aren't inherently bad. In fact these exact qualities attract women who have a more traditional taste (i.e the majority), even though they don't necessarily look for this stuff consciously.

I agree that it's important to strive to be a good person, but that's its own saparate thing. I don't see how rejection of the qualities of your own sex is the way to do it, your sex is an integral part of your human experience. I think you're misidentifying the culprit.

In the words of Jack Donovan "There is a difference between being a good man and being good at being a man".

Sorry to go off on a tangent like that, I just felt like it needed to be said, nothing personal.

[Arctangent]

The mistake you're making is that the masculinity we're talking about isn't actually a part of being male.

It is, however, a mindset centered around males. Y'know, the whole misogynistic ( and almost always homophobic ) mindset that won't allow guys to pursue hobbies that are "feminine" without seeing them as less than human, which almost always leads to seeing women as less than human even if they don't pursue those hobbies themselves. It also comes with an exaggerated focus on anything considered macho, with the shaming of any person who doesn't have those traits.

Those people who unironically believe in the alpha male mindset and yell out "cuck" as basically a replacement for a period? Yeah, those're real, and while they're not the majority, a bunch of people who are only somewhat better than them really are. Because it's a mindset that just leeches itself onto others through its existence - after all, if you're alienated because you were born with a dick and don't have any interest in kicking balls, then one your major options is to just give in and put yourself in line to be assimilated into it.

[VICE]

The masculinity we're talking about isn't actually a part of being male.

True. The masculinity discussed in this thread (i.e the kinds of idiots that harass women in online video games) is immature, teenage-type "masculinity". Sadly many men don't move past that stage even in their late 30's because they're under the impression that is what it should be.

I was replying to the post that I quoted.
What I mostly object to is this behaviour being labeled as standard masculinity.
I don't consider the behaviour of the "stereotypical" teenage girl to be mature femininity, after all. I hope I'm not the only one.

It is, however, a mindset centered around males. Y'know, the whole misogynistic ( and almost always homophobic ) mindset that won't allow guys to pursue hobbies that are "feminine" without seeing them as less than human.

That seems to be an artifact from our hunter-gatherer ancestry. Basically a male that wasn't "masculine" back then wasn't useful in a survival situation or in war with other tribes, and would signal weakness and "hold back the group". * Most kinds of modern primates have these tendencies too (with the exception of Bonobos IIRC, probably others too).
We don't live in that kind of society anymore but the tendecy for this exclusive bahaviour still exists in us. Doesn't make it right, but I think It's important to understand where it comes from and that it has a nature as well as a nurture component.
And yes I am implying that these people are essentially behaving like apes.

*I can provide references if anyone wants to read about this topic.

[Arctangent]

That's kind of a bizarre conclusion to make, considering girls don't have magical abilities that make them only fit for gathering food and resources, tending to kids and domesticated animals, refining hides and bones, etc. etc.

Granted, it had to come from somewhere, and that's a possible source, but if you boil cultural stuff down to the bare basics only the absence of warriors and hunters would be an issue, not the absence of warriors and hunters of a specific sex.

[4thcharacter]

I said it in this very forum back then, I wouldn't care about anyone's gender or whatever unless they're being an ass about it by pretentiously rubbing it in everyone faces. I have a tendency to ridicule those who do that kind of thing. That said, I can see that this issue is really not far off from being true.

[VICE]

That's kind of a bizarre conclusion to make, considering girls don't have magical abilities that make them only fit for gathering food and resources, tending to kids and domesticated animals, refining hides and bones, etc. etc.

These aren't magical abilities that make men and women only fit for particular things; rather these are biological differences that make men and women more fit for particular things, generally. ("Generally" is the most important word in that sentence.)
In a survival situation when resources are low (most of human history), a group assigned with the most fitting roles for their abilites is more likely to thrive.

This is general knowledge but I'll say it anyway:
Men and women have different balances of hormones in utero and througout their life, and so their brains develop slightly differently - so men tend to be more agressive and goal oriented, and women tend to be more social and nurturing. (Not even going to mention physical differences, that bit is obvious).

In an early human society, and in most mammals, the male is the provider and the female is the caretaker, not because that's how some dude decided a long time ago, that's simply how nature (or god if you believe in one) made us.
These "stereotypes" (stereotypes is a very loaded word) aren't inherently negative. They're only negative if they're being used to oppress an individual that doesn't fit them.

So what I was getting at in my previous post is that men are predisposed to ridicule other men for not being "manly", because that helped our chances of survival back when this stuff was relevant.

[Arctangent]

and in most mammals, the male is the mobile sperm bank and the female is the one that does practically everything

Actually goes for animals in general, not just mammals. After all, it makes sense: the female is the one that actually lays the eggs or keeps the fetus in her body, so she's already going to be around the offspring when it's around. This means that she'll likely be the caretaker, which means she needs to not only care for herself, but the children. Which means, y'know, getting food, which means hunting if she's a carnivore. Which leads the male free to fuck off where ever he wants after providing his sperm, since his job is already done.

Let's not forget exactly how reductionist anglers get with this idea, with the male barely maturing and just melting his face off after biting onto a female to provide her with a new, lovely set of gonads for her to use as she pleases.

[Carbine Dioxide]

Stuff

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My ex always thought I was feminine, and maybe because I was too nice or apologetic. One example was that I called a man's chest man tits (and I'm not even what you would call fat or chubby, quite the opposite), and she would always correct me by calling the pecks instead. I don't care what you call them, both genders have nipples...

I try to be masculine to an extent, but growing up without a father, it's kind of hard to categorize what's masculine and what's feminine without someone else' opinion.

Like one time in high school, people though I was gay because I had cut corteroid jean shorts. I threw them away, and asked all my friends if they thought it was gay. As my luck was not on my side that day, they all said "yeah".

How the hell was I supposed to know?

Now I just don't care what I do or say anymore, it doesn't matter whether I'm more feminine than masculine. At least I think it doesn't matter anyway...

It's all the same in the end.

[VICE]

This means that she'll likely be the caretaker, which means she needs to not only care for herself, but the children. Which means, y'know, getting food, which means hunting if she's a carnivore. Which leads the male free to fuck off where ever he wants after providing his sperm, since his job is already done.

I didn't say women didn't hunt at all, of course they did when needed. But when it was time to hunt big dangerous game or fight other tribes, the men had to handle that. Also, In early human societies, even in cases when the man wasn't tied to a particular woman (and was thus "free to fuck off"), they were still around to hunt, fight and defend from other tribes, that was their main "job description".

One example was that I called a man's chest man tits (and I'm not even what you would call fat or chubby, quite the opposite), and she would always correct me by calling the pecks instead. I don't care what you call them, both genders have nipples...

The scientific term is "Chesticles".
I think for most dudes, what you end up calling them has more to do with whether you work out or study anatomy (and thus use the term pecs regularly), and how seriously you take yourself, rather than how masculine you are. I use both pecs and man-boobs regularly depending on the context.

[Scripten]

I think a few people here would benefit from reading the book Sex at Dawn. It'll definitely shake your preconceptions about "accepted" anthropology.

[agaures]

I always thought that females were loved and worshiped online and in gaming communities. At least that's what I've observed. I found that when i pretended to be female (yes i admit to doing this) i was treated a lot differently but never in a negative way (not saying this doesn't happen of course). Guys tend to be a lot more nice and respectful towards girls in gaming community from what i have experienced. Even the same guys that would be absolutely horrible towards other guys.
I think this goes with the creepy guys as well as they're acting this way because of affection for the other gender. Although the creepier side of responses towards females aren't that common for public view, i can't imagine how many creepy PMs people get.
The rare occasions that i have witnessed negativity towards females, they were defended by others and the negative people were shamed which restored my faith in that community.

I have noticed that a lot of hate towards other human beings through racism, sexism or whatever does seem to congregate in America (not saying it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world). Which probably explains why i rarely see anything of the sort in New Zealand or Australian communities besides jokes.
As far as women hating goes, when it comes to online games i can't say i know the whole story as i don't hang around too many gaming communities (especially popular ones). The communities where there are few like Doom or Quake don't seem to have that many toxic people which i am happy about. For example my experience in the Quake community was met with kind and accepting people.

Not to dismiss any of these hate related issues like sexism on the internet as being smaller than they are or non existent but i feel as though, while yes, anonymity does help fuel this hate i think the biggest problem is the power to amplify someones voice or message on the internet. Small communities of toxic people can have their ideas brought up in media and talked about by larger voices blowing the problem out of proportion and making it seem like more of an issue than it actually is. Because the smaller groups are given a bigger voice by others and advertised more it gives the majority the impression that the percentage these toxic people make up is much larger than what they are in reality. No I'm not saying these toxic people aren't an issue and should just be ignored, and yes it would be great to live in a world where there are none of these types of people but... there are always going to be shitty people in the world and the internet does nothing but boost that.

I am sorry to those that are affected in negative ways by this and i can't imagine how these experiences must be for you.

[Rachael]

Things change a lot when you're part of a community for a very long time and start branching out.

Trust me when I say - you're lucky you aren't seeing the whole picture. You might think that people are respecting you more, but they're not. Typically, it's one of two things: they're awestruck, or they're horny.

A lot of my perception could be a bit colored by the time I was an administrator in Skulltag. There were some really great people in Skulltag, don't get me wrong - and many of them (but not all) have continued on to Zandronum. But there were also a few who stuck out like a rusted nail in plywood, too.

The people in the latter category were typically very misogynistic in their comments. But they weren't just bad to me, or another fellow female admin, they were bad to other people, too, in fact the only people they usually were good to were their select "buddies." Whether their misogyny was a joke doesn't really matter as their intent was hostile to begin with, which pretty much makes "ermuhgerd that was a joke" mean shit.

I can tell you one thing - I don't completely mind washing my hands of all that. Those people who were decent typically have reached out here and on DRD Team and I still talk to them. I still have some on Steam and Skype. Those who were bad? They're probably glad I am gone. I am glad not to see them, too. I have noticed that some of them have started maturing a bit over the years, though.

Ironically, the people who I mention are probably the very people Csonicgo is ranting about in the first place.

[Graf Zahl]

I can tell you one thing - I don't completely mind washing my hands of all that. Those people who were decent typically have reached out here and on DRD Team and I still talk to them. I still have some on Steam and Skype. Those who were bad? They're probably glad I am gone. I am glad not to see them, too. I have noticed that some of them have started maturing a bit over the years, though.

Sadly you'll find them anywhere you look - there's always those who are either too immature or too stupid. The former may grow up but the latter won't. Really, the only way to deal with them is to flush them out as soon as they show that they are shitbags. Let them come back a few times, but if it becomes clear that they are not wanted and having to fight an uphill battle, most will just quit and do their shit elsewhere.

Any community that tolerates such people should be boycotted out of principle.

[VICE]

I have noticed that a lot of hate towards other human beings through racism, sexism or whatever does seem to congregate in America...

Actually, and this is just my own observation as someone from outside of North American culture, I think the US in particular seems to be going way too strong with "PC culture". I think the people there are becoming too sensitive, and have a tendency to cry wolf whenever they encounter something that could be interpreted as offensive, sometimes to the detriment of actual issues.
What I'm saying is that I think the US isn't particularly more racist or sexist, rather the culture has become more sensitive, so you hear more people talking about it.
Again, I don't live there, this is merely my impression from American media and news and from people I've talked to.

I come from a culture that is essentially a melting pot of over 20 nationalities, and we have our jokes and stereotypes about race but everyone sort of agreed a long time ago that they're just jokes and we just roll with it. Sometimes people will joke about cultural differences distastefully, but it's not hateful, and it doesn't seem to reach the point of actual violence or discrimination.

[Rachael]

Living in the US, I don't think the US is going too strong on "PC culture." I think people are just learning to react more to what little social injustice there is - and make no mistake - there are some huge social injustice problems going on right now in the US but it is not commonplace, it is not the norm, and it is not widespread as it might seem.

While the internet undoubtedly makes people feel more powerful due to anonymity, those people are still hugely a minority.

In fact, the only real major social problem that the US has right now is indifference. There's too much "I don't care if I don't think it directly affects me" going around. People here typically are really nice, but you have to engage them.

Those people who aren't? Yeah, it only takes one to ruin your day. They still exist. You won't ever go a full week without seeing one if you go out enough.