[RANT] The ZDoom forums as a resource for editors.

[Sir_Alien]

Before I begin, I'd like to state that I understand that the purpose of these forums is not to provide me with space for blogging. However, there is a certain issue I'd like to raise with you all, to see what you think. The issue of the day is "effort".

Now, I'm not blowing my own horn here, but I like to think I do the right thing when it comes the forums, particularly regarding editing help and feature requests. I gut the wiki for information and when that yields no results I usually trawl through dozens of pages of crap on the ZDoom Forums hoping to stumble upon an answer. Only when all other possible options have been exhausted do I post, and even then I usually try to be polite and humble about it. I don't always succeed, and sometimes my posts are just as hasty as the next man's, but I'm getting better.

But lately I've been asking myself, "Self, is it worth it? Is it worth putting in all this effort, spending over an hour on something when being lazy and simply asking for help or making a feature request will do the work for you?"

To be honest, I do it cause I enjoy the sense of achievement I get when I conquer something new or tricky. It's a nice feeling. But it did get me thinking...

What is the point of putting in the effort, when it seems likely that if you simply ask someone else to do it for you enough times, someone else will do it for you. The reward for putting in effort seems only to be a small sense of pride, whereas apathy yields instant rewards, if you can stomach the ensuing backlash, minor or otherwise.

I've seen a lot of posts lately where people have obviously not even made it to the "trial-and-error" stage. Now, just so everyone's clear, trial-and-error is STEP 2 in the editing process. I dunno, maybe some people think that "try it once and give up when it doesn't work" is STEP 2... whatever. It frustrates me to see people throwing up their arms in despair, saying "KSSC is too hard!" when it's quite obvious they haven't really given it a shot... Kristus' post sums my opinion on this up quite succinctly.

But these days, I get on with it and go about my life. I remind myself that not everyone is created the same and that some learn differently from others (I'm lucky that I teach myself things quite readily, but I'm hopeless in a classroom environment). Why would they bother working it out for themselves when they can just have the answers handed to them; not everyone is in it for the sense of acomplishment

So what's the problem..? The problem is the extremes of this situation... Erroneous / duplicate Feature Requests, duplicate threads, threads with misleading titles, threads full of misinformation... That's where the "dozens of pages crap" come from.

So here's the thing: I'm not asking everyone to adopt my attitude. That's a moral highground I don't think it's necessary to scale. However, I am begging the moderators: please do something about this problem. And I think I can safely say that I'm not the only one who's feeling a little frustrated with the current situation.

Please, Bio, Q, Graf... If a thread title is misleading, if a thread is full of misinformation, if a feature request is inane and / or completely useless... Please delete the thread or at least delete the useless posts when there is something worth keeping in a thread. I'm sorry, but there are certain people who should simply be getting their posts trashed by now... Isn't this issue part of the code of conduct for forum behaviour?

In the real world, if people don't listen, then they don't get to learn. Nor are students forced to read texts which are laregly factually inaccurate with one or two elusive pieces of geinuine information. Why are these forums like a special school for remedial students sometimes? I'm all for hand-holding in the initial stages, but when someone's laziness starts to affect the productivity of others you need to stamp that out.

I'm not asking for bans, I'm not asking for warnings or any of that dramatic rubbish... I'm not even asking you to go back and clear out the damage that has been done... I'm just saying that these forums are supposed to be a resource, but when the crap to useful information ratio is skewed to the point it is now, it's completely useless to experienced and newer editors alike.

I appreciate that you all try to keep forum harmony in mind, but I feel like more experienced editors are being neglected as a result of the attention paid to dealing with "problem" members as opposed to "problem" threads. If anything I've said is unfair or uninformed then I apologise; it's not my intention to offend anyone.

Thank you.

[solarsnowfall]

(I'm lucky that I teach myself things quite readily, but I'm hopeless in a classroom environment).

We're very alike in that sense. Something about the typical classroom environment that is just lost on me. Stick me in a library, and it's a different matter.

This thread reminds me, off goes the msn button. What a nuisance that became...

[Enjay]

Hey! Classroom environments put food on my table.

I too have noticed a large number of inane posts and misinformation on the boards of late. There have been a lot of questions which could have been answered with minimal effort on the original poster's behalf before and instead of posting. Also, a number of threads have had a series of either wrong or guessed answers attempting to answer the question but only serving to muddy the water. Quite often such erroneous posts require all but a cursory check by the person making it to realise they are speaking (what's the technical term... oh yes) bollocks. If you're not sure, wherever possible, don't post until you are.

I've also lost count of the "would this work" posts where someone posts an often very simple idea/piece of ACS/ DECORATE code/whatever and then asks "will this work" even when it would take less time to try it out than it would to wait for a reply from someone who may or may not know the answer. Then, of course, sometimes people get upset when they don't get an immediate response. I've even seen simple stuff like "will such and such happen if I use this command line option?" Well, start Zdoom and find out. It'll take all of 2 seconds.

I've also noticed a flurry of pointless feature requests. You know the type: where something could theoretically be possible but so unlikely to ever be used in an actual mod that the only creature thinking about including it is a flying pig silhouetted in front of the a blue moon rise over the frozen landscape of hell. Yet, because the possibility exists and it isn't yet included it becomes a feature request. Why? Was the requester planning on using the feature? Very unlikely. Then there are the feature requests to do something "my way" even when there is already a perfectly sensible way to do it, but it is just not the preferred way of the thread starter for no reason other than preference. And of course there are the requests for well documented features that already exist.

Sure, we all post crap sometimes. I know I've made mistakes. I know I've asked for stuff I should have been able to find myself (but I have at least always tried to do so). However, there does seem to be a trend for the quick-fix "the world owes me an answer" kind of posts recently.

So, yeah, I echo Sir_Alien's sentiments.

[Sir_Alien]

And almost instantly a good example of what I'm talking about appears. This thread fits the bill in almost everything myself and Enjay are talking about.

[Theshooter7]

(I'm lucky that I teach myself things quite readily, but I'm hopeless in a classroom environment).

We're very alike in that sense. Something about the typical classroom environment that is just lost on me. Stick me in a library, and it's a different matter.

Same.

[solarsnowfall]

Hey! Classroom environments put food on my table.

I'm sure if you were my biology teacher (you know, an actual biologist, as opposed to the school's football coach ) it'd be a different story.

If you're not sure, wherever possible, don't post until you are.

Well put, that's the classic noob mistake.

Another thing that really gets my goat, and this is why I removed my MSN button, is when people come to you for help, and have the nads to be argumentative and overly questioning. Lose the ego, if you put yourself in the position of coming to somebody for help, you've already made the agreement that this person is more knowledgeable than you on the subject. If they are willing to lend a helping hand, be glad they did, and make use of their wisdom. Otherwise, you don't deserve to be helped.

[Medricel]

So, yeah, I echo Sir_Alien's sentiments.

As do I, but I don't feel like ranting about it right now

You know the type: where something could theoretically be possible but so unlikely to ever be used in an actual mod that the only creature thinking about including it is a flying pig silhouetted in front of the a blue moon rise over the frozen landscape of hell.

Quote of the week!

[solarsnowfall]

Yes, that quote get's a much diserved LOLOL.

[chaoscentral]

Another thing that really gets my goat, and this is why I removed my MSN button, is when people come to you for help, and have the nads to be argumentative and overly questioning. Lose the ego, if you put yourself in the position of coming to somebody for help, you've already made the agreement that this person is more knowledgeable than you on the subject. If they are willing to lend a helping hand, be glad they did, and make use of their wisdom. Otherwise, you don't deserve to be helped.

QFT!

I've had this happen with my friends asking how to do things with ACS or in DB... and they seemed to think they knew much more than I did.(I still dont know everything )

[Enjay]

Quote of the week!

Complete with typo that I thought I'd edited out before posting.

in front of the a blue moon rise

Either/ or, not both dammit!

[Lumpy]

You all know that I do not get invovled in this community much. I am mostly a lurker. I lurker that reads, and learns. But even I have to agree with Sir Alien. In fact I'd like to take it a step further. I think that any topic that has a decent amount of information about a ZDoom subject (especially the editing aspect) should be stickied, and tagged somehow. The reason I want them tagged is because about 30% of the time the title of the thread is misleading.

A recent example of my on is that I had to flip through 44 threads of stuff that both had the words episode, and mapinfo in them. The only one I got any info from was a feature suggestion to add the ability of defining the skill level names per episode. There was an example of the mapinfo in question in the thread. Thank god for that and the wiki.

But even after going through all of that and double checking, and triple checking the wiki. I tried writing my mapinfo about 8 different ways. I still had to post a question just to make sure about something that I was 90% sure was right.

[Sir_Alien]

The reason I want them tagged is because about 30% of the time the title of the thread is misleading.

Simply renaming the thread to something more appropriate would probably alleviate this problem substantially. Otherwise I completely understand what you're saying... I can't remember how many times I've blindly stumbled upon an answer from simply clicking on every thread my search yields, regardless of the (ir)relevance of the topic or title...

[Necromage]

Amen. Thats all I have to say.

Though, granted I have done a number of these things I think that I am pretty good with the whole looking up things before asking.

[solarsnowfall]

Sir_Alien for moderator!!!

[Kappes Buur]

Sir Alien, et al: Right on.

This forum is inhabited by too many noob bashers. By posting counterproductive dribble, they seem to believe themselves to be "experts" simply by virtue of their time of membership and the count of their posts. To boot, they frequently post misinformation.

No, I have nothing against people, as such, posting dribble, as long as they do it in the OFF-Topic section.

As to the productive information, I have the suggestion to immediately enter that in the ZDoom WIKI, as the WIKI is quite incomplete and replete of example maps. A simple map, addressing a particular issue, I find, is the best guide one can ask for.

Unfortunately, I have not yet found a way of how to upload a map to the WIKI, or I would have done so myself already.