Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

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Hellser
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by Hellser »

yum13241 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:22 am Then explain why patch93's soundfont sounds different compared to say, scc1t2?
Without spending hours explaining things - I've retyped this message about six times already...

A SC-55, SCC-1, SC-155 is the same synth with different forms of input or purposes. This is facts.

Do not compare a soundfont to a synth. Never compare a soundfont to a synth. The synth will win, as it is the real deal hardware. Soundfonts replicate the sound of a synth. scc1t2.sf2 uses... let's be honest, probably uses GM.DLS as its baseline with a few tweaks. GM.DLS was provided by Roland for Microsoft. GM.DLS contains samples from a SCC-1.. which is a SC-55. gzdoom.sf2 (SC-55 Preset as it is called) also probably uses a tweaked GM.DLS to make it sound as 'organic as possible'. As in, you can throw anything at it and it'll sound decent.

Patch93 probably sourced recordings from the internet or their own synth of different notes for each of the 128 instruments+drums to get the real deal SC-55 sound. But, again. It will never compare to a real synth. There are other soundfonts out there, like EmperorGrieferus's SC-55 which sounds closer to my actual synths.

Actual synths? I own a SC-55ST and a SC-88ST, and am in the market to get an SC-8820 or SC-88ST Pro. I primarily use my SC-88ST in SC-55 Map Mode for Doom. I am a stickler (like, a bad stickler) for MIDI sound - something that my friends have heard me go on about for hours. Since I got these synths, I haven't used a soundfont since. But I can offer a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZjAn-X3YU4

Check out Doomkid's video, which has multiple recordings of a SC-55 soundfont up against E1M1/At Doom's Gate.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by axredneck »

Edit: looks like my copy of gzdoom.sf2 is corrupted, it's checksum differs from gzdoom.sf2 from GZDoom's git repository.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by Hellser »

Might want to go ahead and fix that. But as for the topic of this thread, VLC might be playing midis wrong. Recommend trying another player.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by yum13241 »

Check out Doomkid's video, which has multiple recordings of a SC-55 soundfont up against E1M1/At Doom's Gate.
I already watched that one and I can hear some differences between a real SC-55 and some soundfonts I've used. If GM.DLS is an SCC-1, which is an SC-55, why does it sound different? Do I need my ears checked? BTW SCC1T2 has out of tune pianos, see https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/1 ... -for-both/.

GM.DLS and even an SC-55 soundfont sound completely different, especially in MIDIs like D_SHAWN.

In short:

Doomkid's rip of E1M1 from a real SC-55 sounds more like Patch93's SC-55 soundfont than SCC-1T2 or Florestan Basic.
Even if the SCC-1 is just a "put it into your ancient PC today!" version of an SC-55, it sounds different. The guitar in D_SHAWN is a good example. So is TZ_THEME.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by Chris »

yum13241 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:28 am If GM.DLS is an SCC-1, which is an SC-55, why does it sound different?
Different synths. Windows' MIDI synth, using GM.DLS, renders and mixes differently to a SC-55/SCC-1. Different resampling algorithms, different filter and effect implementations, probably a lack of certain features. The same soundfont can sound vastly different with different synths (GZDoom has a modified version of Timidity built-in, for example, which will sound different to FluidSynth 2, which will sound different to WildMIDI, which will sound different to Windows' MIDI synth, etc). Simply using the same sample data isn't enough to sound the same.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by yum13241 »

Even if I use a completely different software synth, it still sounds different. Florestan Basic sounds nothing like an SC-55.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by Hellser »

yum13241 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:53 am Even if I use a completely different software synth, it still sounds different. Florestan Basic sounds nothing like an SC-55.
Chris wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 5:51 pm Different synths. Windows' MIDI synth, using GM.DLS, renders and mixes differently to a SC-55/SCC-1. Different resampling algorithms, different filter and effect implementations, probably a lack of certain features... Simply using the same sample data isn't enough to sound the same.
Yep.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by zdusr »

Hellser wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 12:14 pm Might I ask what songs sounds wrong? I have a SC-88ST that I can compare the song to with gzdoom.sf2. gzdoom.sf2 is suppose to be a near raw rip of the SC-55.

Edit: Trying out that THEDA2 from chillax, gzdoom.sf2 and my SC-88 in SC-55 mode sounds nearly identical. Also would like to mention I don't use VLC for midi playback. I use Falcosoft's Midiplayer.
Interesting. That Falcosoft plays it a lot different than VLC and slightly different than GZDoom. Looks like .sf2 isn't the only thing that matters? Anyways it seems to be strictly midi only. Is there any more general purpose players (That could eat anything that comes out of wad/pk3 such as mp3 and what not) that can play it accurately?
Hellser wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 2:33 pm Might want to go ahead and fix that. But as for the topic of this thread, VLC might be playing midis wrong. Recommend trying another player.
Ah that's what I thought. Too many midis were too different to blame sf alone.
Chris wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 5:51 pm
yum13241 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:28 am If GM.DLS is an SCC-1, which is an SC-55, why does it sound different?
Different synths. Windows' MIDI synth, using GM.DLS, renders and mixes differently to a SC-55/SCC-1. Different resampling algorithms, different filter and effect implementations, probably a lack of certain features. The same soundfont can sound vastly different with different synths (GZDoom has a modified version of Timidity built-in, for example, which will sound different to FluidSynth 2, which will sound different to WildMIDI, which will sound different to Windows' MIDI synth, etc). Simply using the same sample data isn't enough to sound the same.
Do I understand correctly that this explains why even same soundfont behaves differently in different player?
I primarily use my SC-88ST in SC-55 Map Mode for Doom.
How do you do that? Do you pre-record midis into some other format such as mp3 and then replace them in wad file? Or does Doom have option that if music is in midi format then play using external device instead?
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by Hellser »

On a phone typing this: I have a USB to MIDI interface (Roland UM-ONE) that is plugged into my SC-88ST. I then use another program (I think Coolsoft makes it) to tell Windows that my MIDI interface is the default midi device. For GZDoom, I just switch over the midi device to my UM-ONE. Anything that needs to be played goes to SC-88ST, then I have a line in from that to my PC so I can hear midi goodness.

Also, yes. That does explain why two different players sound different. They could be using the same synth, but older. Or entirely different synths. VLC, while I use it for my everyday media, doesn't do a good job I've noticed when playing MIDI. I use Falcosofts MIDIPlayer for it's accuracy. All of its features aims to supply the best experience. Hell, it can even do MT-32 which is different from the General MIDI standard.

GZDoom uses Fluidsynth, Wildmidi and Timidity. 3 different type of synths for different flavors. Falcosofts uses Bassmidi. IIRC there is a softsynth (again, Coolsoft) that uses Bassmidi and you can load any sf2 you want into it and use it as your default midi device. Even in GZDoom.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by yum13241 »

IIRC there is a softsynth (again, Coolsoft) that uses Bassmidi and you can load any sf2 you want into it and use it as your default midi device. Even in GZDoom.
I already use CoolSoft VirtualMIDISynth. The other program is Coolsoft MIDIMapper.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by Gez »

One thing to keep in mind about emulating Roland synths with soundfonts, is that the SF2 format was designed by Creative for their Sound Blaster EMU cards. To hopefully no one's surprise, the Roland cards and the SB cards don't work in exactly the same way. Notably, some of the effects that the SC-55/SCC-1/whatever did to its samples are not supported by the SF2 format -- I forgot the technical details, but you can go through the rabbit hole here and there. So even if you get the very exact samples that the Roland card used, putting them in Fluidsynth will still not sound right.
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Re: Play Doom midi with VLC properly?

Post by Graf Zahl »

Indeed - and using the same sound font with FluidSynth or Timidity++ sounds VERY different as well. ZMusic wouldn't have all these synths if FluidSynth was always the best.

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