Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

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Eric_
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Eric_ »

So do you have any actual answers to my questions or did you think that it would slip past me that you ignored them to focus on smaller details? Why were you still in FP and allowed to contribute to staff conversations when you had resigned from staff? Why, despite that involvement, did you then claim no responsibility for their decisions? Why are you still playing the victim now? How is any of your behavior here reflective of anything resembling even an image of professionalism, let alone actually behaving as such? You can apologize for individual comments all you want, but your true attitude is abundantly clear, and paints a clear picture of what qualities the administration values in their staff selections.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by yum13241 »

IMO what's pretty dumb is that I never knew this happened 'till now.

There's one thing I'm good at: stating the obvious. The situation was handled terribly.
Rachael wrote: We are going to miss you, Randi! Don't be a stranger. :) I will take good care of your site, I promise. :)
Debatable. Idk, maybe Randi will just come out of the blue or smth lol.
Tapwave wrote: • Rachel needs to step down from any moderation capacity. We are not telling her to leave Zdoom forever. We are telling her to stop engaging in a function that she is not suited for, and clearly causes her a lot of grief. A lot of people, which I'm sure includes herself, will enjoy great relief if she can be allowed to focus on things she is clearly skilled at. Webmaster stuff, development, all that stuff she has skills that have been consistently been of use to the community.

• An actual apology on this issue would be great. Not something huge and well written. Just Rachael saying "Okay. I messed up. I sorry. I'll do my best to change" is enough. A lot of us are incensed by her unwillingness to accept any blame and deflecting the issue. This would show she has -some- ability to overcome that.

• Make Candice step down. A lot of us believe she is purely here due to nepotism (favoritism based off of kinship) and is not someone we consider a mature pillar of our community. Again, she doesn't have to leave permanently, but she definitely should not have been made a moderator. Instead, have an actual moderator recruiting campaign. Hold a vote. Actively engage your community on those matters, because many of us are convinced that the current moderator circle is entirely there on Rachael's behalf.

(Emphasis is yum's)
For point 1, I actually kinda agree. I'm not saying "rAcHaEl sUcKs" I'm saying, why are/were they (the staff, primarily Rachael) just playing hide and seek.
For point 2, I believe that was done. She apologized for the bans at least.
For point 3, Candice has barely anything to do with this. Also, can't Rachael just demote her? No one can demote her AFAIK except for Randi. Moderator voting should definitely be a thing.
For bolded point 1, that makes sense.
For bolded point 2, wasn't it always like that ever since Randi left?
I'd like to assume good faith here.
sudo wrote: We trust you have received the usual lecture from the local System
Administrator. It usually boils down to these three things:

#1) Respect the privacy of others.
#2) Think before you type.
#3) With great power comes great responsibility.
1 is not really relevant right now.
2 is general life advice. I should have done this too.
3 is/wad clearly being disregarded.

Semi-pointless stuff aside, while there was NO way Rachael could've known about Marisa being what she is when she first joined, I would've preferred swifter action.
Why this didn't end in March is beyond me. This post was the only thing that told me this even happened. It's almost the end of April now. Why this feels like a statement that'd come from M$ is also beyond me. I'm willing to give second chances. The staff are human. They can change, for the better and for the worse. There's still plenty of time in 2023. I find Eric_ agreeable.

I probably shouldn't have written the below/the entire post:

RIP ZDOOM COMMUNITY:
1999-2023
WE SURVIVED 24 YEARS.

Let's hope I don't get warned/banned for this. I regret nothing.
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NachtIntellect
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by NachtIntellect »

Eric_ wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:41 am But your true attitude is abundantly clear, and paints a clear picture of what qualities the administration values in their staff selections.
Oof, I mean I know I'm not the best person but damn I once got offered to be a moderator, turned it down but I guess this makes me low quality.

In all seriousness I have been watching this thread and do have some thoughts of my own but I still consider myself to be an outsider of the community there is 1 clear thing I won't stand for and I understand, it's upset a lot of you, you were friends with Marisa but a lot of this was led by emotions of "This can't be real right?" it's rough I get it you get torn between a rock and a hard place but never favor friends over a community, yes this is as soul-less as it sounds you have to try and subtract yourself from the equation and unfortunately if that means you lose friendships, you are going to lose them in this case there seemed to be tugging at some strings of "There's evidence that it's not so".

A decision was made, it took a couple of months but it was even then it seemed indecisiveness and waiting for more information took it's toll, I'm just going to say I don't hate nor do I envy anyone in the community just that I wish action had been taken sooner, people had been pointing their pitchforks which led to the initial ban but I think the ideal thing in this situation is to let the person know you are banning them until evidence against the claims can be provided along with information on where and when to contact the moderator banning, that's not always a perfect option it's something you have to sort of have understand what's going on and what to do, however that's not what this is about.

I think staff should not fan the flames or attempt to badmouth anyone even in private, some people stoop to the level of telling you to kill yourself or do shit that makes you wish you were dead or gone away from people, I get pissed off with people too for me it's not the case of walking away, I'm much too stubborn to back down, it's the case of trying to see the perspective of other people and why they were acting the way they do, this does not mean wholly caring about everything that is going on in their life.

The whole pressuring other communities, honestly it goes to show something people are willing to listen to staff outside of their own circles if they are respected enough but it doesn't mean you should try to twist their arm further a simple "I don't agree with this" would cut. When I was invited to the fun police I was iffy about it, I admit I was worried that someone would try to control my actions but then I realised that I control what I do, I still refused to join in the end though.

Thinking about this, I think the communities that bended the knee are at fault unless there's some blackmail going on which I haven't seen here but I'm not blind so if there's evidence of this feel free to send it my way in my DMs, otherwise no other communities shouldn't feel pressured to unban x person based on what they've seen.

Hoping that was coherent and sound, I'm very incoherent sometimes
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Caligari87
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Caligari87 »

Just because something is written in neutral or formal language like "a statement that'd come from M$" doesn't mean it's not necessarily sincere. It's not our fault that corporate shitbird lawyers have spent the last half-century co-opting tone. Unless everyone would rather the statement be written like "ooopsy woopsy we did a fucky wucky", which I personally don't think is appropriate.

So far I see two big outstanding sentiments here:

1. Certain admins / mods need to step down or be removed.
2. The apologies aren't good enough.

For #1: I'm not sure how to approach this. I've seen a lot of anti-Rachael and anti-Weasel sentiment over the years. Some of it deserved, some not. All I know is that I'm not interested in staging a coup of any kind, so any change in leadership would need to be a mutual decision. Also there's the question of site management in general, and whether or not that could be separated from community leadership / moderation decisions.

For #2: Speaking for myself, I want to state, unequivocally and without reserve, that it was not EVER my intent to strong-arm or blackmail any other communities or individuals. You can put me up against a firing squad and I won't budge on that. I realize certain things I've said could be interpreted that way. But I never meant for it. Those of you who've known me a while, know I fly off the handle and get angry or misspeak at times, but I hope that years of history make it clear that I try to be cooperative and understanding. I don't go in for blackmail, never have, never will. Regardless, I'm genuinely sorry that things I've said have caused strife and distrust.

Now, apologies go both ways. You can either accept that I'm telling the truth and, or you can decide I'm lying and continue to be angry. But I do want to rebuild these bridges of trust. I'm reaching out here.

Speaking more generally, I get the sentiment that nothing will ever be good enough. Too much goodwill has been burned for some people to ever forgive. Honestly... that's fair. I've cut people out of my life before because I could never stand to hear them speak again. But if you're only here to be angry forever, it's not going to help fix anything. Either move on, or please give us something to work with so we can start moving forward.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by MFG38 »

I don't know how I feel about any of this.

I don't know how I feel about the accusations themselves. I don't know how I feel about the way the information has been presented. I don't know how I feel about the way some of the moderation team - especially Rachael - have presented themselves here.

I'm making the wise decision and withholding my judgment until we hear Marisa's side of the story.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by mikolah »



I have no qualms whatsoever with Candice, but since Tapwave in this very thread mentioned that the only reason she got the mod position was nepotism, I have to unfortunately confirm that Candice herself as stated as such in a past conversation. But I don't think Candice is at all at fault for this: if she had shown consistent goodwill and contribution, she'd have been chosen without any issue, but the problem is that the way it happened is not the right way to pick moderators, because if it had been someone other than Candice (someone like, you know, Marisa), that's a very dangerous backdoor to be letting potentially dangerous people in as staff members. The fact that people were able to arrive at this conclusion on their own without any hard proof goes to show how it is stuff like this that impedes trust between the administration, whom I have always respected, and the userbase.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by dpJudas »

I'm not sure this is a particular good example, since if you had asked me if Marisa would have been good to have as administrator I'd have said yes sure, why not. She seems like a nice person. There is only so much you can do. You can't know everything in advance about people you meet on the internet, or anywhere in life really.

When I originally joined the doom community Rachael also showered me in access to various things, but it is important to keep in mind her she could have taken it away again instantly if I had abused any of it. At the time I just saw it as her believing a little bit too much in a person she just met. Calling it nepotism is a little bit too hard I think. Also lets not pretend that everything in the Doom community is decided by committee and voting. I have tremendous pull in the ZDoom community from the work I've provided over the years - Graf and Randi even more so. Rachael and Weasel have consistently maintained and moderated this web site and a bunch of servers related to the community for a very long time now. So even if this is a fuck up, let's put things into perspective here shall we? Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by yum13241 »

Spoiler: Regarding Caligari87's posts
Spoiler: Regarding mikolah's posts
Spoiler: Regarding dp's posts
To sum up:
Caligari87 is a good admin. He's sane and does not support this mess. He wants a good forum.
mikolah doesn't like Rachael's process of picking mods/admins, but he believes Candice did nothing wrong.
dpJudas is defending the admins. He has the right to his opinion, but I believe that's too much like playing devil's advocate.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by dpJudas »

yum13241 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:37 pm dpJudas is defending the admins. He has the right to his opinion, but I believe that's too much like playing devil's advocate.
Yes, please view the world in black and white. Either you are for the admins or you are against. There are no nuances possible.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by dawnbreez »

Tapwave wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:21 am
dawnbreez wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:06 am If Marisa's behavior is unacceptable, I don't know how in the hell the victim's actions were acceptable.
Marisa let the behavior happen instead of stopping it. That is what is being reproached to her. I'm not putting this into question, but I do believe we are missing the forest of "There are people actively seeking out transpeople in our community to manipulate while doing actual federal crime that involve children in order to prove their point that trans people are groomers" for the tree that is Marisa.
I am painfully aware of that problem, believe me. I don't like the idea of that problem arriving on ZDoom Forums' doorstep. I'm gonna step away from the thread for at least a day, because I'm not in any kind of mental state to be dealing with...[gestures to entire thread], but I wanted to make that clear.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Dynamo »

I wasn't going to post here, but...
yum13241 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:37 pmTo sum up:
With all due respect possible, if you have nothing intelligent to add, then please add nothing.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Caligari87 »

Dynamo wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:24 pmWith all due respect possible, if you have nothing intelligent to add, then please add nothing.
Actually I'd prefer if more people chimed in; This is a community after all, and I don't want this discussion to be only driven by a dozen people with highly-vested interest. I know a lot of people are watching and not saying anything because they feel like they don't have something "new" to add. But this isn't about "new" points, it's about reaching some kind of consensus and hearing people out (at least, that's how I'm treating it).

What doesn't anything intelligent to the discussion is telling people their post doesn't add anything, when it clearly does. Blatant yesmanship or "this" I'd split it off, but Yum had several good things to contribute (just hidden inside the spoiler).

8-)
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by yum13241 »

Dynamo wrote: With all due respect possible, if you have nothing intelligent to add, then please add nothing.
Try not calling me dumb. Stop flaming.
dpJudas wrote: Yes, please view the world in black and white. Either you are for the admins or you are against. There are no nuances possible.
If you read my post you'd know that's not the case. If I were purely against the admins I'd be anti Caligari87. My posts show that's not the case.
Caligari87 wrote: Blatant yesmanship or "this" I'd split it off, but Yum had several good things to contribute (just hidden inside the spoiler).
Thanks! :)


The Argumentative Pyramid Solves Flamewars..
What is "Project Blackfire"?
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by cyber_cool »

Caligari87 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:39 pm
Dynamo wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:24 pmWith all due respect possible, if you have nothing intelligent to add, then please add nothing.
Actually I'd prefer if more people chimed in; This is a community after all, and I don't want this discussion to be only driven by a dozen people with highly-vested interest.
Is it really the case?
The thing is, hesitation in staff's decision making over this ban was caused due to Marisa being a part of this one big family that formed, like, ~20 years ago, while I was a toddler (may get numbers wrong, but again, I can't know everything).
And your moderator disputes are primarily internal. From what I have gathered, a majority of your team don't make decisions on their own or too worried about their public image and damage control.
What can us regular users say about that? Users like me that joined a couple of years ago and can't help but feel like a passerby, a stranger? Nothing in particular. Except maybe that hiding information and waiting for so long for Marisa to make a public statement when it was becoming apparent that she wouldn't bother? It's well known already.
yum13241 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:43 pm Try not calling me dumb.
Nobody's calling you dumb. They are calling your post dumb. There is no good in taking everything so personally.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by yum13241 »

cyber_cool wrote: Nobody's calling you dumb. They are calling your post dumb. There is no good in taking everything so personally.
Saying I have nothing intelligent to post can only be taken as calling me dumb.
cyber_cool wrote: What can us regular users say about that? Users like me that joined a couple of years ago and can't help but feel like a passerby, a stranger? Nothing in particular. Except maybe that hiding information and waiting for so long for Marisa to make a public statement when it was becoming apparent that she wouldn't bother? It's well known already.
That the situation was handled atrociously.
cyber_cool wrote: The thing is, hesitation in staff's decision making over this ban was caused due to Marisa being a part of this one big family that formed, like, ~20 years ago, while I was a toddler (may get numbers wrong, but again, I can't know everything).
If Rachael said bad things, we'd all assume she got hacked. People that are close to you naturally are not your first suspects. BTW, I wasn't even a thought yet in 1999.

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