Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

[The Toxic Avenger]

I was not made aware of any revelations about what she was doing until her ban happened, some of which I actually just learned. She was mostly nice with me but I have no desire to reconnect whatsoever.

[DarkkOne]

Edit: Removed my post. Thinking more about it, I don't want to participate in this discussion.

[The Toxic Avenger]

I feel like having a secondary "drama prevention squad" in addition to actual moderators wouldn't be the best solution here. What would that second team do during most of the time that nothing's happening? Converse?

What's needed here is both 100% transparency on intentions, actions, and for the team to distance themselves from what was planned outright. Then there can be (albeit very slow) motions towards rebuilding trust, friendships, and anything else that fell apart during this. A lot of us are mentally exhausted from what's been transpiring.

[Shiny Metagross]

The Toxic Avenger was brought in early into the high level discussion on a separate issue. We were hoping he could help bridge the gap between the ZDoom staff and Zandronum staff on the issue as a third party, but unfortunately this did not happen.

The truth is, when the bans occurred, the decision was made in haste, and some of us were not heard. Shortly afterward, TTA left the same Discord on his own accord.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to directly message me; I have no reservations.

[Vordenko]

My issue is ultimately how the situation was handled and the malicious intent behind the scenes. You guys were STILL talking to her about this just a couple days ago? That's what I don't get. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you came to the conclusion you guys did, but why did it take over two months (or one month if you start counting from her initial ban) for everyone to come to the consensus that Marisa was dangerous?

I should clarify, I personally was still on "good" terms with her until recent, but over the course of the month the thought of cutting ties slowly crept over me. My decision to separate was the nail in the coffin for everyone, rather than reality looming over us. She never demonstrated any of her negative aspects anywhere near me until it came to the recent boiling point, which was why I held out. It was quite an eye opener when others within the FP started admitting to her behavior, then it happening to me.

I will deny any malicious intent on my end, however. I'm not a fan of revenge tactics on moderation, and I did not influence, nor condone, the bans that have happened here today. I'm a third party that's sharing some of the responsibility, but ZDoom is not in my influence.

I can second this statement. Personally, we all wanted to handle the situation as careful and thoughtful as it could be. For many of us, Marisa was a friend, and as such it was harder to separate and cut ties from her. Eventually we all did, and the ZDoom staff was in the process to make an announcement regarding the issue.

I'm speaking as a former moderator, that only got to see the aftermath of the whole incident, and the constant pressure is what made me quit. I was mostly in FP to offer advice and second thoughts, most of the people in there were. Yeah there was some gossiping, but none of it was in ill intent. And besides, this sort of thing happens basically in almost all staff channels for a lot of servers. Does it make it right? No, but it does make it human.

Now, I do agree that there needed to be more transparency, the topic about that had come up a few times. It was always in the back of everyone's heads. I dare say it even became more of a concern after two members from Zandronum's administration: Nax and Marcaek, had been removed after the latter had a severe mishap with a few members in FP. Personally, I don't think the removal was the right way to go, but it was definitely bound to happen anyway given the lack of trust from their part, as far as I've gathered. (Come to think of it, the fact they were saving chat logs as a way to get back at ZDoom just speaks volumes of the levels of professionalism from their part too.)

Did the staff at ZDoom made a mistake there? Yes and No. It should have been handled more delicatedly. However, with all the constant drama and pressure, shit happens... and hopefully the mistakes are learned.

Which is what brings me here. I've hung around several communities in the past, and seen all sorts of drama. One thing I learned, is that hate is stronger than words. People choose to hate, some even hold grudges long enough and retort to lashing out and throwing everyone else under the bus, and for what? Honestly, that's a thing you need to ask yourself, because everyone has a different reason to channel their hatred towards others. A lot of people here want Rachael gone, some even want weasel to step down. I don't think it's as simple as that, but I do believe all this will give them room to think for improvement.

I do think Marisa's situation should have been handled quicker, yes. But I don't think giving in to the pressure without handling it carefully was the way to go either. I don't think there was a real way to win here. The only improvement I can see that can come out of all this, is give full transparency from now on, which is I believe the general statement everyone is echoing now.

I also don't think retorting to "exposing" was the best way to go either, but that's not on the staff from here at least. There is a way to turning this into a somewhat of a net positive, I'll grant it that. But the damage done between communities is now irreversible.

...Then again, the only times anyone hears about Zandronum anymore is due to drama, so maybe that's why, heh.

[Cardboard Marty]

Yeah there was some gossiping, but none of it was in ill intent. And besides, this sort of thing happens basically in almost all staff channels for a lot of servers. Does it make it right? No, but it does make it human.

I'm going to have to call BS on this. I have been a part of many staff channels and the things you guys said in there were not normal. There was absolutely ill intent, and I don't recall it being normal for moderators to wish for accusers to burn or to plan to strong-arm other communities into letting an alleged predator back in.

(Come to think of it, the fact they were saving chat logs as a way to get back at ZDoom just speaks volumes of the levels of professionalism from their part too.)

I don't really know how to phrase this more politely, but they were saving chat logs because you guys were up to some absolutely scummy shit. They disagreed with that and that led to their removal. Had they not saved them, this issue would have been buried and the community at large would have been unaware of it. You need to drop the narrative that Nax and others were trying to plot against ZDoom specifically. Read the room. Community members who were not involved in this issue have found what you guys were doing to be utterly disgusting. Nax specifically wanted this to work out more diplomatically and was banned for it. This was our last resort.

I do think Marisa's situation should have been handled quicker, yes. But I don't think giving in to the pressure without handling it carefully was the way to go either. I don't think there was a real way to win here.

There was absolutely a real way to win, and it was to A) Not belittle the victims in private just because your friend was being accused of a heinous crime and B) Not plan on undermining the trust of the community and manipulating them into allowing a sexual predator to have access to their platform again. I understand hesitation as I've stated previously, but it's complete bullshit that you guys couldn't have won here. You lost by playing with fire and you've gotten burned. You're upset because you got caught. What is the alternative? That the video and logs never came out so status quo could be maintained? Again, read the room. Nobody in the community is defending what you've done here.

...Then again, the only times anyone hears about Zandronum anymore is due to drama, so maybe that's why, heh.

So petty. Please stop shooting yourself in the foot like this, like or not, you represent part of the problem and you're causing more damage here.

[Kinsie]

For many of us, Marisa was a friend, and as such it was harder to separate and cut ties from her

It's actually fairly easy to cut ties with someone when you have considerable evidence of them being a sex creep and they have no reasonable counterargument. I've been in the unfortunate situation of having to do it a non-zero amount of times, and it mostly entails a single sentence to the effect of "I'm not comfortable around you anymore" if you're feeling charitable, and a flurry of blocks and/or bans.

Yeah there was some gossiping, but none of it was in ill intent.

We can see the logs.

I also don't think retorting to "exposing" was the best way to go either

It would have never become public knowledge if it hadn't.

The disturbing common theme I'm seeing in some of the staff replies here is that they consider themselves the victim in all this, as opposed to, you know, the actual victim.

[Vordenko]

*Snip*

*Snip*

So I was originally going to reply individually, but this is the same pattern from when I tried to apologize for what happened in the YouTube video.

By that, I mean that I tried to approach the issue assertively and politely there, and was met by nothing but also hostility and being called all sorts of things. So, the pettyness may be a result of that. Yeah, I admit that is my bad, so let me be real here and apologize for that, again.

My apology for you, Marty, has still been standing, I'm just not a fan of ALSO being attacked because I was trying to do what I felt was right, and was going by information that I had. Not every single person in FP was all about calling for tridents and pitchforks, and I think I know what specific log it's being referenced here.

With that in mind, what bothers me the most is that AFTER Nax/Marc were removed, I was one of the people that openly critisized it there, alongside Kevans. But does anyone ever say that? No. The decision by the two not only did it burn a bridge, but it also caught a lot of people who may have agreed with them, in the crossfire, had the situation turned out differently. That's the exact reason why it bothered me a lot that the logs were exposed, because some of the attacks have been misguided. That's the issue with posting logs just like that. Anyone can then make up their own conclusion, it causes more damage than actually amend it.

I've been groomed in the past, I know what it is like, and I can recognize suspicious behavior from the get go. It's also why I try to help people that have been victims of it. Marisa never came off as one before, and part of me really wanted to believe she self sabotaged herself. Yeah that's my bad, if you don't like it, fine. I don't even have ties with her anyway. But now thanks to this I won't hear the end of it, even if I wasn't part of the staff or did the decisions they did, and a lot of other folk are on the same boat. If you're going to demand change, that's fine, but don't blame everyone in there, at least not equally. Be reasonable, that's all I ask.

What bothers me is that once again my arguments get cherry picked. I clearly said in my original statement that I was not happy with how it all played out, and that ZDoom's moderation has a lot of room to improve. It's the same thing that I said in the Video's comment section. I'm all for civilized discussion, but not when I just get attacked like that.

[dawnbreez]

Wait. Wait wait wait. Hold the fuck up. I'm coming into this really late, but there's something in the OP that bothers me.

The accuser, who was 17, was soliciting nudes from twelve-year-olds and sending them unprompted, and Marisa had receipts...and we're treating Marisa as the creep? This smells fishy as hell. Marisa's actions don't look great even if we assume everything she said is true, but based on what she's got chatlogs for, this is way more complicated than "Marisa is a groomer".

Granted, because of the--let's call it the "context" of the word 'groomer' these days, I'm suspicious by default in cases like this. That is, strictly speaking, a bias. But, y'know, the modern context of the word 'groomer' is that people will happily throw the word 'groomer' at anything and everything except actual groomers, because certain groups of people realized that they needed a new scapegoat. (The GOP poisoned the well on that word, is what I'm saying.)

Point being--shit's complicated, and (based on my limited, rushed reading of this thread) it sounds like we're rolling with an oversimplified answer that doesn't match what the OP says we've got chatlogs for. Something is not adding up.

[Kinsie]

and (based on my limited, rushed reading of this thread)

You should probably read the thread again.

[Eric_]

Not every single person in FP was all about calling for tridents and pitchforks, and I think I know what specific log it's being referenced here.

But you very specifically were, being the one to repeatedly call for pressuring other communities over the matter. If you didn't have a full understanding of the situation, that mentality is even more dangerous and unsuitable for such discussions.

I was one of the people that openly critisized it there, alongside Kevans. But does anyone ever say that? No.

How brave of you to "openly critisize" a decision made in a private server, within that private server, where you go on to deny having any influence anyway. Why can't you get your story straight?

even if I wasn't part of the staff or did the decisions they did

You were a part of the discussion. Why were you still present in that server, contributing to the staff conversation, with some of the more aggressive ideas at that, if you had nothing to do with them? How can you claim any sort of professionalism to your side when they're letting resigned staff stick around and still influence the discussion? How long will you keep up this pathetic ass-covering act before you realize that it has been accomplishing the opposite of what you intend? The complete failure to understand this is the central problem here. You think being "professional" is a matter of appearances and not actions. Nobody cares about your personal judgment of Marisa. They care that this backroom server, intended to collaborate efforts between communities, instead saw dissenting voices from other communities banned and was used to conspire against your own community and against others.

I clearly said in my original statement that I was not happy with how it all played out, and that ZDoom's moderation has a lot of room to improve.

A completely hollow statement that is overwhelmingly drowned out by your ongoing attempts to antagonize other communities.

[dawnbreez]

and (based on my limited, rushed reading of this thread)

You should probably read the thread again.

I'm probably gonna come back and read this thread again later, once I've had some time to process this mess (and it's one hell of a mess). A lot of this is colored by the original post bringing up, y'know, the victim distributing CP, with logs to prove it, followed by "Obviously, that explanation was not satisfactory". This came off as dismissive of, y'know, Marisa's evidence. I get the reasoning behind "If the accusations are true we want her out, and if the accusations are false it's going to be a great big pile of harassment and bullshit", but it feels wrong, in a way that I'm struggling to find words for at the moment.

As I understand it, another big complaint is that the victim was banned...after, according to the logs the OP cites as evidence, distributing CP. And...there's an argument over whether or not the victim should be banned? Even if you assume Marisa is guilty, the 'victim' has committed Serious Business Federal Crimes here, according to the logs--which, again, are the logs that the moderation team trusts enough to talk about in their official statement on this whole clusterfuck. If Marisa's behavior is unacceptable, I don't know how in the hell the victim's actions were acceptable.

Look, I want to believe that I've missed something, or that I'm misunderstanding something, or that there's context I don't have that explains all this. Again, I wanna give myself some more time to work through all these details, make sure I've got my head on straight about all of it. I know that at least part of the discussion has been about whether the Fun Police channel should've existed at all, but it looks like there was some kind of uproar about who else was banned, and my first impression here has me wondering if I stepped into the Twilight Zone.

It's difficult enough just reading about this shit. I'd love to be able to just say "it's none of my business", but this is a community I'm involved in, one that I care deeply about (and one that I rely on for tech support, lol). I can't shake the feeling that this is one of those cases where, if I don't look into it now, I'll get blindsided by questions about it later.

I'm gonna go try to, I dunno, gather my thoughts. I'll come back when I feel like I've got a better grip on what's going on.

[Tapwave]

If Marisa's behavior is unacceptable, I don't know how in the hell the victim's actions were acceptable.

Marisa let the behavior happen instead of stopping it. That is what is being reproached to her. I'm not putting this into question, but I do believe we are missing the forest of "There are people actively seeking out transpeople in our community to manipulate while doing actual federal crime that involve children in order to prove their point that trans people are groomers" for the tree that is Marisa.

[Cardboard Marty]

Unless something else comes up that demands a reply from me, I'm going to say my peace and leave as originally intended.

I really hope sincere change comes out of this. That's ultimately what I wanted to accomplish with my video. ZDoom's moderation staff needs to be held accountable for their actions in this situation and that goes far beyond Marisa. I am willing to admit that there is a lot of nuance and weirdness to Marisa's situation that I'm still presently confused about. The fact of the matter is that even with that nuance in mind, as stated before, conspiring to reintroduce a predator into the community with a complete lack of respect for both the community itself and Marisa's victims (that is victims, plural) is beyond unacceptable. It's shameful. The attitude of some of the staff victimizing themselves in this situation, the bannings, and the snippy comments toward a rightfully angry userbase are embarrassing. I am happy that some of the staff do seem to be taking notes and are open to change, however, and I hope that mindset makes its way to the people upstairs who need it the most.

I can only hope that Tapwave's suggestion earlier in the thread is taken seriously. The last thing I want to do is come back here and see the same behavior play out. And that's the thing, with every issue that has been raised in the past regarding changes to the forums and backlash against certain decisions, the community has always been treated like an annoying kid by its leadership. Too many times I've seen legitimate discussions being carried out and threads closed because the staff just couldn't handle people being upset. Even if we concede that being upset =/= being able to freely verbally attack the moderation team, I still think we should expect staff to be level-headed in these situations when they come up and not retaliatory/spiteful.

My suggestion in this situation is simple: Let people be angry.

The community has a right to be angry with you and to express that. What you've done deserves ire. Let this be a space where people can express their frustration. We deserve better.

I said the word "hope" a lot in this post, but repairing that relationship with the community is going to take more than a statement and a couple days. It's going to take time, effort, and actual change behind the scenes. So yeah, I hope if/when I come back here, things are different.

[Vordenko]

Not every single person in FP was all about calling for tridents and pitchforks, and I think I know what specific log it's being referenced here.

But you very specifically were, being the one to repeatedly call for pressuring other communities over the matter. If you didn't have a full understanding of the situation, that mentality is even more dangerous and unsuitable for such discussions.

When I said "with enough pressure they will cave in", I was referring to what usually happens when the support shifts majorly. I do admit a fault in expressing myself there, english is not my first language and I often have trouble trying to express what I think. However, I can see why it can look damning, and I apologize for that.

I was one of the people that openly critisized it there, alongside Kevans. But does anyone ever say that? No.

How brave of you to "openly critisize" a decision made in a private server, within that private server, where you go on to deny having any influence anyway. Why can't you get your story straight?

There was always major disagreements within FP, in many of them other people were allowed to chime in and express their concerns. I never said I had no influence in the matter however, that's where I accept the blame and I should have been more clear.

I clearly said in my original statement that I was not happy with how it all played out, and that ZDoom's moderation has a lot of room to improve.

A completely hollow statement that is overwhelmingly drowned out by your ongoing attempts to antagonize other communities.

Only thing I've been doing is bring up more context as to why the situation turned out the way it did, assertively. I tried to do the same before, by being as polite as possible, and I just got attacked instantly. It never implied it excused the incident, just said the entire thing could have gone better and was let down by how it all played out in the end.

Having said all this, I will only leave it by saying that all of this shouldn't have happened in the first place, and I meant FP's direction from the start. I have interacted with Rachael, weasel, and others on a personal level, they're just humans that made mistakes, and I do think they will learn from all this for the better of the community.

My suggestion in this situation is simple: Let people be angry.

The community has a right to be angry with you and to express that. What you've done deserves ire. Let this be a space where people can express their frustration. We deserve better.

I said the word "hope" a lot in this post, but repairing that relationship with the community is going to take more than a statement and a couple days. It's going to take time, effort, and actual change behind the scenes. So yeah, I hope if/when I come back here, things are different.

I do have to agree there, and frankly one of my faults is that I can barely handle myself better during a mass argument. That's one of the reasons why I had to quit the moderation too, but was willing to at least chime in with my opinions, many of them were wrong, and I know I fucked up there.

So, I'm going to approach this as humanly possible: It is a shame to see it all play out the way it did, but also understandeable that people are upset. I also share the same sentiment too, and I do wish you luck in your future endevours. Once again, I apologize for my own actions, and I do plan to learn from these mistakes for the future to come. Having said that, take care y'all.