[No] Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Moderator: GZDoom Developers

Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby gdm413229 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:36 am

I present to you ... a proposal for an integrated archive and map editor. Enclosed in this post is the proposal in Markdown, HTML and PDF. To read the proposal, extract the enclosed ZIP file and read the files inside.
Attachments
hellsmith_proposal.zip
The proposal, now in three flavors.
(19.05 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby wildweasel » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:51 am

Without having read the proposal, I feel like this isn't really GZDoom's business. There's already tons of great programs out there to handle archive editing, and the tools available to edit maps are fairly mature and established. Integrating all of that into GZDoom would put a lot of pressure on the devs to somehow make it better than what's established, since it'd be seen as the "canonical" way to do things, and a lot of folks would complain if the built in feature was worse than the external support. Look at what already happens with the IWAD picker.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby gdm413229 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:21 pm

The downside of some of those tools you're thinking of is the Windows-centric nature of GZDB-Bugfix and SLADE 3.x lacking 3D floors in the 3D view. Viewing a Doom map's BSP tree in Linux will be laborious (write own code or hack Wine/run a Windows VM to run GZDB-BF), but with additional bugs and graphical glitches related to WineD3D or DXVK. My ideal map editor for GZDoom is one that's tightly integrated with the GZDoom codebase with a wide array of renderers, from the original Carmack renderer to the polygon-based renderers of today. Having the full feature set and convenience of GZDB-Bugfix into a single map editor application (for native Linux) is one of my pipe dreams. If the proposal is accepted, plugins for the proposed editor would be written in a dialect of ZScript that's catered towards content creation automation. The proposed editor would be a teleporter to heaven for those who want the features of GZDB without the fear of Windows 10 spilling nukage all over your precious work. (Windows 10 BSODs, GZDB-BF crashes and forced updates cause the system to "spill nukage" all over your unsaved work, in short, your unsaved work's lost forever!)

To read the proposal, you need software to extract the zip. Windows users can use 7-Zip to extract the proposal's zip file. Viewing the proposal's HTML file is a piece of cake, you just use your web browser.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby wildweasel » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:57 pm

Suppose I'm on a mobile device and can't easily extract your proposal. Why not post it as a message in the thread instead of making me go the extra mile? I can't imagine there's a lot of rich media in it, since you say you've included a Markdown format as well.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby Enjay » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:09 pm

Well, I managed to open the zip file (using the dreaded Windows 10 nukage spreader's default integrated zip support) and read the proposal.
[edit] "The proposal" really isn't that big. I don't know why you didn't just post it "as is" on the forum as a regular post. [/edit]

aaaand... that's all it seems to be: a proposal with no tangible help, code, offer of work etc. Honestly, it doesn't read as much more than a wish list; a fairly involved one, yes, but that's all (and actually not that involved really, most of the details are quite cursory). I don't see anything that anyone could take to indicate that work has been done or is being offered - and those would be required.

I'm also going to suggest that the proposal is for something unnecessary, mostly unwanted, something that would bulk the game engine exe and get in the way.

Most of the differences between GZDB and "the proposal" seem to be "nice to haves" rather than essentials. I'd rather see the most valuable stuff added to GZDB than an editor added to the game engine.

An archive editor interface? A 3D and 2D interface with adjustable Blender-like windows? That's a lot to be adding to GZDoom.

I hear what you are saying about GZDB being more or less tied to Windows but replacing it with a headache of a fledgling editor that complicates the engine code does not seem like a valuable way to go at all.

I'm also going to be all "Windows users don't care about Linux users" here as well, but Linux users are a very small proportion of the GZDoom user base and I'm always hearing from Linux users how well stuff works under Wine anyway. :P Honestly, my view on Linux has long been "if you choose to be different, you have to pay the price of being different." Smaller userbase = poorer support and less willingness and ability to help.

I have no idea how feasible porting GZDB to Linux is (but I also see very little in the way of concrete feasibility suggestions in "the proposal" either) but that sounds like a better endeavour for someone IMO. Although, perhaps there is a reason that there have been very, very few Linux editors for Doom ever.

If you wanted to see exactly how GZDoom would render a level then perhaps there could be a port of GZDoom that works as a 3D editor that can be called from GZDB (in a similar way to how DeePsea uses a port of Risen3D as its 3D editor) but, honestly, I prefer the GZDB 3D interface to using a game engine. I feel that it does tasks and shows things in a way that is useful in an editor, but that you wouldn't want in a game engine and vice versa.

Not sure where all your paranoia about Windows 10 nukage comes from though. You speak about it as if it is inevitable.

I would be very surprised if any devs want this and without any obvious "I'm prepared and able to do this" it's highly unlikely to fly.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby gdm413229 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:06 pm

The Win10 "nukage" thing is my Doom-like representation of the unstable and vulnerable nature of the kernel (compared to Linux) and forced updates of the Windows 10 operating system, with explosive nukage-filled barrels. Dip an architectural draft in some nukage and it will dissolve away, and it's a symbolic way of saying that unsaved work gets lost in a system or application crash. My Doom engine content creation workflows are predominantly based on the Linux operating system and this proposal could be one step closer to a fully Linux based yet feature-packed map editing workflow. The proposed editor will be included in the executable if you set ENABLE_HELLSMITH to true in CMake.

The Win10 "nukage spreader" is only useful to describe an instance of Windows 10 that misbehaves frequently e.g. frequent crashes, Trojan infections and other means of vulnerability exploitation.

Does anyone know of any way that I could lay the foundations of the proposed editor into GZDoom's source code? Don't forget to scan the GZDB-Bugfix source code for any OpenGL calls, and if OpenGL calls are present in GZDB-BF, porting the tool to Linux would be quite easy.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:09 pm

gdm413229 wrote:Does anyone know of any way that I could lay the foundations of the proposed editor into GZDoom's source code?


Even if you did, this will never be picked up. Someone has to maintain the code later on and it's not gonna be me.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby Enjay » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:36 pm

gdm413229 wrote:The Win10 "nukage" thing is my Doom-like representation of the unstable and vulnerable nature of the kernel (compared to Linux)...

Yeah, I got that. I just wasn't sure why you seemed so paranoid about it, and talked about windows 10 as if the OS trashing your work was an absolute certainty. Quite simply, that's not my experience.

However, the proposal has had a pretty clear no and this is not the place to continue an OS war.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby Matt » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:20 pm

I've had work nuked on Linux. Backups are good whatever you're doing.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby Rachael » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:07 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Even if you did, this will never be picked up. Someone has to maintain the code later on and it's not gonna be me.

Same here.

I have enough to do keeping my own contributions up to date and working properly, and am failing with that a bit with what little software renderer enhancements I helped with as it is. :P Not gonna do the same with someone else's work.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby JPL » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:24 am

I've thought about this sort of thing a lot in the past and my honest assessment is you're better off building a new Doom-like engine with tight integration of game and editor as a core architectural assumption.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby gdm413229 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:18 am

Such a proposal could be useful for full map creation workflows when using non-x86 CPUs. The original id maps in DOOM and DOOM II are made using a NeXT computer equipped with a Motorola 68040. (the id maps' BSP trees are built using DoomBSP on NeXTStep!) The proposal could take off if more GZDoom users are on Raspberry Pi's.

EDIT: I'm just giving a scenario that makes the proposal take off.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby Rachael » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:32 am

I'd recommend SLADE3 for the pi, although I don't know how much it works, if even at all.

As of right now, however, the team does not support running GZDoom on the Pi, anyway. That won't be coming back until the pi upgrades its shitty videocore chip to something that can handle GLES 3.x/OpenGL 3.3, at least. It won't even start unless it's run with Mesa's software GPU emulation, and performance for that is extremely shitty - especially on the Pi.

You're really just barking up the wrong tree here, sorry.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby wildweasel » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:34 am

gdm413229 wrote:Such a proposal could be useful for full map creation workflows when using non-x86 CPUs. The original id maps in DOOM and DOOM II are made using a NeXT computer equipped with a Motorola 68040. (the id maps' BSP trees are built using DoomBSP on NeXTStep!) The proposal could take off if more GZDoom users are on Raspberry Pi's.

EDIT: I'm just giving a scenario that makes the proposal take off.

Wouldn't it be more effective to design tools specific to those platforms, since they all have different needs as far as interface and performance.

Besides that, if you really wanted your proposal to "take off", you'd find some way to get a working prototype. Even beyond that, the devs have already told you they have no interest in maintaining it due to how complex the end result can make things.
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Re: Integrated Archive and Map Editor Proposal

Postby gdm413229 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:53 am

GZDoom should have options for building with GL 1.x or 2.x backends for older and/or less capable graphics hardware ... including the Pi's VideoCore IV and ancient Silicon Graphics workstations.
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