Right... If it's good enough to just sell, and the creator has the means to just sell it, it's probably going to be just sold, isn't it?Apeirogon wrote:Even obvious slag can be sold for 999.99 + taxes + shipping + on beer to the courier, if it have good advertising campaign.
It's jokes that already stopped being funny six years before the game was released, rewritten to somehow be less funny, and with an art style that cannot decide what it wants to be, and fails to be good at any of it. You have probably heard every joke it wants to tell you.Apeirogon wrote:Emmm.....you know that this is a banter over nowadays game industry, right?!NeuralStunner wrote:this ugly, unfunny garbage
You are completely missing my point. My point wasn't that you CAN'T release your game, or that you don't have the right to do so. My point, was that unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?NeuralStunner wrote:This I can agree with. Standards of quality are important, but that's primarily mindset. Webcomics would be a great example: There's quite a few i wouldn't call "fine art" by any means, but they convey intent and effort. And then there's audience mindset. If this ugly, unfunny garbage can be successful, I can certainly come up with something good.hardcore_gamer wrote:No, my point was that once you start charging money for something you can't hold it to the same standard as you would if it were released as a free mod.
Besides, it's becoming easier than ever to make a prototype. Sure, 90% of "make your own game!!" toolkits are trash, and the market is oversaturated with default resource cashgrabs. (This is where we all bash on unity, go ahead, get it out of your system, no need to post it though because we've heard it all before.) But why actively discourage people from literally following in the footsteps of the guys that pioneered the industry? The original Id guys were working in their spare time to - get this - make something salable.
Frankly, the "this should just be a mod" argument is almost always just a thin coat of paint over the good old sense of entitlement. It's a short step from "I wouldn't buy this as a game but I would play it as a mod" to "I wouldn't pay for this game but i would torrent it". One of the most pirated games in the USA is Garry's Mod. It goes on sale for around $5 with amusing frequency - Ever spend $5 on snacks? How long did that enjoyment last? (Besides, the game is 90% code and the rest is primarily Half-Life 2 models. Asset reuse?! Grab the pitchforks, everyone!)
I'm not saying everyone should rush off and monetize the first thing they come up with. The first things I've made are crap, and I understand that's very common. But let's not fault people for dreaming, and trying to build that dream. If I want to put in my time and my effort to make something I would be fully willing to pay for, you really have no right to tell me "this should be free!"
So, none of us should release anything commercially because you think we all suck. Okay.hardcore_gamer wrote:
You are completely missing my point. My point wasn't that you CAN'T release your game, or that you don't have the right to do so. My point, was that unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?
Unobtainable for 90% of ZDF community? Speak for yourself, maybe you can't reach the said level. For years we have saw people doing the most awesome things here in these forums. I strongly believe that most long time modders present here on these forums have a pretty sharp level of game design skills, so please, don't generalize things like that. I don't know about you but if the likes of Guncaster, High Noon Drifter or Blade of Agony decides to step on the commercial, stand-alone format, they''ll surely have my money. And there's also the subjectively of the term "better". What is better for me may not be better for you, "better" is a matter of taste. If you don't want to buy it, cool. Your opinion, your money, your rights. But the next guy may want to buy. And the next one. Like Rachel said, "you are no arbitrator to decide what people buy or do for a living", and your standards of what is a good game or game design shouldn't stop people from trying to enter the the indie gaming market. If anything, they are completely irrelevant. Most people won't start big, they need time, experience in order to become great, and that's true to even some big, AAA devs. Also, this:hardcore_gamer wrote:
[...]unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?
What kind of games are being compared again? I suppose you're not trying to compare an indie game developed by a small team to a big budget title right? Because if you are, that's just wrong. And in regards of the so called "old-school shooters revival" trend, most mods here beat the crap out of commercial, self-proclaimed old-school fpses (i'm looking at you, Strafe), so i still don't see how or where the "pizza logic" applies here in the context of GZDoom powered mods/games quality.But if you ask for money then people will look at it differently because then they will compare it to other things that cost money.
I've seen some wonderful things come out of here that's way better than you say it is. If people here make such low quality shit, then why are you even here?hardcore_gamer wrote:You are completely missing my point. My point wasn't that you CAN'T release your game, or that you don't have the right to do so. My point, was that unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?
And that's exactly my point: It brings enjoyment, even to someone as cynical as he is. He wouldn't play it if he didn't enjoy it. Period. Even if he does, it won't be for long - it'll be either to find out he doesn't like it, in which case he moves the fuck on from it and finds something else to do to waste his useless time, or makes some sort of media or something to critique it.jdredalert wrote:Apparently because he can play it for free i guess.
I'm actually really confused by this metaphor, but I'll assume you're not just stating the obvious "being ripped off is bad". Let's be realistic... Bad pizza is bad pizza, being free isn't going to change that. DLC Quest could be declared freeware tomorrow and it'd still be ugly, unfunny garbage. If it's so poor that any kind of pricetag is a turnoff, then why be so annoyed? It's crap, play something else. If you do still want to play it, then by definition it has value to you.hardcore_gamer wrote:Pizza tastes better if you are getting what you paid for, because else whatever enjoyment you might have gotten from eating it will be spoiled by the angry feelings of being ripped off.
I wonder how often the people who read that phrase followed that rule...wildweasel wrote:I would put it in the words of Amiga scene group Fairlight: "A game worth playing is a game worth buying!"
you're thinking too good about these mods, the fun part of mods to me is seeing what creative ways people can come up with to enhance an allready finished game but I wouldn't consider any of them as good as ion maiden, most of these use a lot of assets from realm667 (kind of like the cheap unity games we all hate) and others are partial coversions that still feel a lot like doom. original total conversion require a lot more work, creating textures, sprites and eventually even 3d polygon or voxel model from scratch takes way more effort and at the end give a way better result.hardcore_gamer wrote:Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?
This crap again?Zen3001 wrote:msot of these use a lot of assets from realm667 (kind of like the cheap unity games we all hate)