MEMBRANE

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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:22 am

SuperDon wrote:$1000 is going to Raccoon. This is for his time producing levels (this is also basically paying for his computer)
I'm sorry, hang on, what? A thousand smackers? For Doom maps? From someone who hasn't released any maps for anything in the past, and has no mod credits beyond "ideas guy" and "ran some sprites through Waifu2x once"?

I think your lack of community involvement might be getting used against you, just quietly.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:28 am

Awesome, a post I actually want to respond to! :D
Cardboard Marty wrote:After playing the currently released demo, I feel like there is a lot of potential here that could be capitalized on, but it's hard to support this in its current state. The first available level would be really suitable for a tech demo and does utilize some interesting concepts.

Right, and that was the point of this: we're trying to show some concepts which we're going to work on as time goes on.

I thought there was a lot of creative stuff you could use the tentacle for, and possibly expanding on that in the future would be really neat.

Yeah, the tentacle is actually in an early state: we're still discussing exactly how it should appear and how to handle it, but you should try picking up explosive barrels with it. The idea of picking up the little Terrosaurs and those plant things in the ventilation shafts has also been tossed around. Personally though, I enjoy sticking grenades to enemies and watching them pop, even though both the explosion effect and gibbing definitely need work.

The models are fantastic, especially the animations for the character player and her design seems really cool (maybe a bit too Spider-Man/symbiote-influenced if anything).
I was actually wondering about that too, but I never really asked. We're actually kicking around the idea of having the player set a gender and skin type at the beginning of the game, and then having both models simply mutate into the same humanoid monster by the end.

As stated by others earlier in the thread, the weapon and enemy animations are definitely lacking. The Ray Gun seems like it should be more pistol-like, but the world model makes it look like a rifle or some sort, and the Spreadshot rifle barely has any recoil when firing. The fire blaster weapon thing you get in level 2 looks really cool, but it doesn't feel fun to fire at all. The melee as of right now also feels really really weird, especially since you start out with it. What's the difference between the primary and alternate fire?
And now you're coming across something that I really wanted to sit down and work on at some point, but didn't really feel I had the time to before we packaged this: those guns are definitely lacking that "3 Act" awesomeness that really makes a gun fun to use, and they also don't look "Alien" enough for the theme. I've been working with Don on getting some more interesting, less human-looking models for those things, while I've been working out different ideas for how they should function. For example, I'm thinking of replacing the shotgun and chaingun's attacks with sharp little green projectiles which they sort of spit out.

However, once that gets fixed up, I feel like the game itself will feel better as a whole.

I hope so, considering it's a prototype for something that's got a bit longer at development! :P

If you're wanting to have people invest money into this game, I don't think that this should even be publicly viewable right now.
You know, I've kind of been wondering the same thing: when we were getting the crowdfunding stuff together it seemed like this was really important to do as quickly as possible, but now that we're at this point, more prep would definitely have been better. Neither of us has really run a crowdfunding campaign before, and it's definitely a learning experience right now...

I don't understand exactly what your working agreement with SuperDon is, but I think saying "well if I'm not gonna get paid, I'm not gonna to try as hard" for a project that you stated will continue with or without full funding goals met is incredibly disingenuous.
I think I just keep messing up what I'm trying to say. It's not a matter of lack of passion, it's not a matter of "won't work on", it's a matter of "won't have the time to work on". As I said, my job regularly gets up to 60 hour weeks, and I've been treating this as "work", but I need to eat food and pay my student loans: if there isn't anyone willing to say "I will spend $15 on this", then is it really "work", or just a little hobby project that needs to come second to paying work?

My other points have been stated by others here, but I feel like your attitude in these replies comes off as arrogant, and blaming SuperDon for the problems of the currently released build doesn't really fill me with confidence about the future of this project.

Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way. As I've said, none of you really have to buy this. We're asking for money now because, if anyone is interested in paying money for this, we could really it at this point.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:33 am

ErinRedFen wrote:4k is like chump change for game development, I'm surprised they're not asking for more.

This is like, the first really big game either of us have worked on. Small potatoes make small fries. :V

Also, not working as hard if you're not being paid makes sense.. of course you'd prioritize stuff that pays bills and puts food on the table.

This is also a good way to say it.

I like this project, i wanna see where it goes.

Right, and I'd like to make it for you, so for now, should probably stop spending so much time worrying about what people on one forum say and worry about actually, like, working on the game...
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby Nash » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:49 pm

SuperDon: do take note that PBR implementation is currently incomplete in GZDoom due to lack of environment reflection probes. What you design in your toolchain (B2M, Designer, whatever), might possibly look very different and unexpected when brought into GZDoom. Definitely won't be physically correct. Even dpJudas himself (the programmer responsible for the graphical enhancements of the engine) has recommended specular map workflow (diffuse/spec/norm) at the moment and has gone on record on Discord saying he should have disabled PBR in hindsight when texture materials were implemented.

Rockstar Raccoon: Your PR skills leave a lot to be desired. It says something when almost all of the first page of the thread is crticism.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby TerminusEst13 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:15 pm

SuperDon wrote:Hey man, this is some really good constructive criticism. Let me address where the money is going, and we might have to update the indiegogo page if this is causing concern.

This is some good information, thank you very much! In my experience, I've found transparency to be the best course of action when it comes to money, clarifying what's going to go where and why you need this. Putting this up on the page will likely go a long way towards convincing people.

ErinRedFen wrote:4k is like chump change for game development, I'm surprised they're not asking for more.
Dev environments always take more resources than the product, i mean heck, they gotta load up all the assets, even ones not being used in the level. Heck, Doom itself was developed on NEXT machines, not PCs even though they were the targets.
Also, not working as hard if you're not being paid makes sense.. of course you'd prioritize stuff that pays bills and puts food on the table.

I agree, 4k is chump change. Game development takes a long time and is expensive as hell. I also agree it's sensible for not working as hard if you're not getting paid for it.
But no, dev environments do not always take more resources than the project. You do not need a behemoth of a rig to run GZDoombuilder. I can understand Don getting the lion's share, because 3D modelling and rendering can wreck GPUs something fierce. But for using GZDoombuilder? No way. I'll get into this a little bit later.
I sympathize with a 60-hour work week, I really do. Shit sucks. Shit sucks hard, especially when you have student loans to pay after the fact. But game development is something where you need to give your all, you can't half-ass it. And if you're not going to give your all to another person's project you signed on to then why did you join the project in the first place?

RockstarRaccoon wrote:Awesome, a post I actually want to respond to! :D [...] Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Excuse me? What the hell, dude?

RockstarRaccoon wrote:I've seen other campaigns with less information, but yeah, it was a bit vague for me too. Basically, I can work a lot faster on hardware which could meet the requirements to test stuff like PBR in a detailed map, and could view the map in GZDB without significant lag, because GZDB is far less efficient when it comes to rendering than GZDoom itself, all while keeping other programs open so I don't have to open and close programs. To this end, I invested $800 of my last paycheck into a heavily-discounted 2016 MSI computer, which is far more than I spend on the computers I use to make websites and knick nacks for clients.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:...I'm... actually surprised you don't know this.
So, like, the DoomBuilder renderer that Code Imp wrote doesn't render maps in the same way as the actual renderer. That's why you can do things like go above the map and see a bunch of rooms at once, which is great for an editor, but it means that all the neat little tricks that someone can use to optimize a map don't do anything in that renderer, and in some cases can even slow it down. This becomes noticable when you're working with large maps, especially since, as Code Imp stated himself, that renderer is NOT built with the need for 30+ FPS in mind. So, in order to quickly map things in GZDB, I need a computer which can handle rendering a full map with models and lights and all that without any occlusion being handled. It also helps to be able to run the game at a relatively high fidelity without having to wait very long for it to load.

I do know this. I also know that it's completely irrelevant, from my experience.
What "neat tricks" to you use? How do they slow things down? Why do you need a heftier rig to render a full map with models and lights and "all that"? What else is "all that"? Blade of Agony is currently one of the most demanding mods out there, and makes heavy use of lightning, 3D models, and more. I can barely run the mod at all. However, I just loaded up C2M3 in GZDoombuilder-Bugfix (the most demanding variation of Doombuilder there is) and there's no issue at all. I can scroll through the map with no troubles, I can see through the actors, the models, the lights, everything.
Yes, DB2, GZDoombuilder, GZDoombuilder-Bugfix, and Doombuilder X have wildly different renderers than the in-game renderer, but they're two completely different sets of software that handle two completely different purposes. In the end, DB2 and its derivatives are much less demanding than GZDoom is, because the only thing it needs to process are the (limited) visuals of a map. It doesn't need to bother with half of the stuff GZDoom does. A 1k PC (even at a discount) is a far better rig than I've got, and I've made, like, two games in the engine already. Neither of them exactly with the scope you're going for, but suffice to say I know what working in this engine requires and what you're talking about just doesn't make sense.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:Yes. I'm not going to be doing enemy models or anything like that, but I was the one who set up all the Specular Mapping stuff so far, and some of the textures in there are edits of things he gave me. Remember, I've been screwing around with Doom on and off for over 10 years: I'm no stranger to doing my own art in GIMP.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:The first time I picked up DoomBuilder and screwed around with mapping to make and improve maps for me and my friends to play in Hexen was over 10 years ago, and I've been popping in and out of the community on and off to do various mapping things. There's probably a better way to say that, but Indiegogo has some strict character limits. If you have a better way to describe it then I'm all ears.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:Keep in mind, guys, me and Zan talk on Discord all the time in private, so you guys wouldn't know about the code I have lent that project or the detailed notes and Bug testing I have done.

Okay, the more you evade this, the more curious I get about this.
What have you been doing?

You keep saying you have 10 years of experience and stuff you've done, but what do you have as a tangible release to play? If you've been working in the engine for 10 years, surely you have something. What have you done?
The twitter link for Membrane says that the new map is specifically made by you--as Marty mentioned earlier, it's probably the biggest quality drop. The first map simply looked bland, but the second map is...confusing, quite garish, and doesn't make sense. If this is the work we can expect from the final product, then that's not a good sign of quality. Simple placeholders are good; there's a regular 32-in-24 event on Doomworld where people put out simple map layouts in 24 hours and then decorate and detail them after the fact, and even when undecorated and undetailed as placeholders they look and play pretty fun. If this is the work you can put out with 10 years of experience, then what have you been doing?
A better way to describe it is simply listing what you've worked on. For a theoretical resume, Torm would put it simply: "Made Blade of Agony, Sapphire, Torment & Torture". Kinsie would say "Made Reelism". Even Don himself has an impressive piece of work, Jedi Knight Enhanced? That's amazing! There's none of this nonsense about "10 years of experience and mapping with credits on such and such (I gave advice and suggestions)".

Don's addressed the critiques and feedback head-on, and he has clear demonstrations of his work, what he can do, and what he's capable of. His (plainly seeable) work is great, too, the enemies look really cool and (even with the lack of animation feedback) the weapons look cool, the tentacle thing could be fun to play around with.
You've been continuing to speak in vague terms with explanations that don't really connect together or make sense.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby leodoom85 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:39 pm

You keep saying you have 10 years of experience and stuff you've done, but what do you have as a tangible release to play? If you've been working in the engine for 10 years, surely you have something. What have you done?

I also ask the same. I'm still new for people's projects and don't know much about what have been done.
Me? I did maps for other projects (Term know this well and it goes the same for others) but, the more I see the "fact", the more I question his actions.

So, RockstarRaccoon, can you tell us what maps/projects have you done please?.....so that I can believe you.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby Ozymandias81 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:57 pm

And you also did just a couple of sprites which have been replaced on Blade of Agony, with nice playtesting sessions which helped us a bit fixing some issues.
Stop using and abusing Blade of Agony, because you always try to "advertise" things "you do" as something grandiose RockstarRaccoon, but not a single concrete inch of this really happened.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby SanyaWaffles » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:04 pm

I have some concerns about any project who's PR skills are insufficient. Many games that could have been great have been plagued by problems, PR being one of them. You could make a great game but if your PR is not up to snuff, it can cause people to be off-put.

One game that comes to mind is Mighty No 9, with it's PR fiasco. The game was substandard, and even bricked many people's consoles and caused computer antimalware to flag it as a virus for some reason - and on top it off, the PR team was absolutely abysmal.

I admit, my skills with PR are not the best but at least I provide major updates frequently for my two current projects, and I try to listen to people's overall concerns and not just dismiss them. If I may be blunt, but sincere, your PR needs serious work RR.

While some of what Don has said some of this has shown more transparency - I have a feeling not everything is being shared by all parties involved, which rubs off on me a bit awkwardly. I know 4K for game development is chump change - but an exact budget and reasonings is to be expected. Spreadsheets aren't hard to do and would help alot. Also 1000 quid for mapping... I have some reservations about that. that's 1/4 of the gaming budget, just for one person, who hasn't shown much to their name.

Also speaking of which - I'd like to see more of RR's work. Any previous mods, maps or dabblings with the engine. With my project, I've been working off and on for a decade and have experience in mapping, scripting, programming (To a degree I can troubleshoot when the engine's at fault, or if it's my scripting) and I routinely share demos of my project so people know I'm still working on them. I even did that back in my rookie days. There's not alot to show for your experience RR, outside you just telling us. In this day and age I don't just trust and believe blindly.

Also I'm concerned about the fact alot of criticism here - some has been addressed, but most of it has been ignored or half-heartedly explained. I don't wanna discourage creativity, but I have some serious reservations about this project and the displays I've seen of the PR nightmare that I see.

And you ignored alot of my peers' posts which make good points... I feel like you're ignoring alot of very experienced people in the process, which is counter productive against your goals.

Plus you have a tendency to inject yourself into other people's works and discussions I've noticed, just to top it all off. That's kind of off-putting.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby YukiHerz » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:43 pm

I remember enjoying the original Membrane demo released a long while ago, but I'm not in a position where I can sit down and play this updated demo.

That said, according to people, it seems much more effort has been spent imagining a promise rather than building tangible improvements over that old demo.

That does not make me want to help this project, not right now, but I still want to believe this can be an enjoyable game.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby R4L » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:29 pm

Well, I suppose Metroid Doom is out of the question then.

As far as criticisms:

-Guns definitely need work (which you guys already know). Grenades really need an upgrade in range; they aren't fun to use. Models look fantastic however.

-Level designs are pretty plain but these are still placeholder of course?

-The tentacle is cool, but the grappling mechanic is hard to use. The puff doesn't hit where the crosshair is. Also, I had no idea those were grappling points, unless I wasn't paying attention to something?

As a backer, I wish you guys luck. Maybe some more planning could have went into this, but there's still time to turn that all around.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:26 pm

Ozymandias81 wrote:And you also did just a couple of sprites which have been replaced on Blade of Agony, with nice playtesting sessions which helped us a bit fixing some issues.
Stop using and abusing Blade of Agony, because you always try to "advertise" things "you do" as something grandiose RockstarRaccoon, but not a single concrete inch of this really happened.
Okay. So let's look at Raccoon's critically-acclaimed ten years of community efforts:

Metroid Doom: It's Metroid Dreadnought, but with some sprites run through a resizing filter, edits to an unfinished leftover map, and additional contributions begged out of other Metroid Dreadnought forks.
Blade of Agony: Tester, and some sprites that aren't in the mod anymore.
Hedon: Made some forum posts once, somehow got a mention in the credits out of it.
Public Relations: "Awesome, a post I actually want to respond to! :D"

Your credentials are heavily misrepresented, your interaction with people you're trying to get to give you money is disrespectful at best, and you're using all this to get someone with actual talent to promise you New PC Money on account of complaints about editor performance that have been found to not actually exist, even on machines held together by duct tape and prayer.

Raccoon, could you please give me a reason not to use the word "scammer"? Because this looks pretty bad, all things considered.
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Re: MEMBRANE - (new) Official Development Thread

Postby gwHero » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:59 am

@RockstarRaccoon:

I really hesitate to mention this, but I already got an itchy feeling when I got this two sentence PM from you a couple of months back, only 8 days after I announced my TC on this forum (which is still in a pre alpha state and absolutely not ready to be tested yet). You showed interest in the project and kindly offered to help me, which was a nice thing to do, but you also suggested to send you a preliminary build of my project, so you could give me "some constructive feedback and perhaps be able to help with a few resources".

I still want to believe that you did this with the best intentions, but if I had wanted that and the project was in a state to be tested and getting feedback, I of course would had offered the link to my project already on the forum. So I kept a bit of an awkward feeling after receiving your request, which I considered vague and even a bit blunt too, since I could not find any achievements of you showing wads you had created (true, from me you won't find any wads too, but I don't ask for fundings like you do to get me a 1k machine; I would never consider something like that without being able to show what kind of things I had produced in the past).

So, I wonder how many more people got requests from you. Of course I downloaded the Membrane demo and I also want to state that it is clear to me that Don is an absolute talent in creating games. Okay, it's not perfect yet, but hack it's an unfinished game that already looks very cool and I really trust him to be able to make it better and better and finish it one day. But as Kinsie stated, I do understand his concerns about you and I also think you yourself need to change the way you present yourself on this forum, and even more to prove what you're capable of, to lift off the distrust. Really hope that it all turns out great! So I would like to end in a positive way to wish you and Don success, because what I've seen so far has high potency already.
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Re: MEMBRANE

Postby InsanityBringer » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:06 am

Well, after all of this, it seems that RR's gone, as the Indiegogo page now mentions Don as the sole developer.

I really would love to see Don succeed here, he's put together a pretty nice looking world, and definitely has the talent to make good things.
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Re: MEMBRANE

Postby SanyaWaffles » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:08 am

InsanityBringer wrote:I really would love to see Don succeed here, he's put together a pretty nice looking world, and definitely has the talent to make good things.


I gotta echo the statements here. I really should have mentioned earlier, that the graphics and models and the world overall looks VERY nice and I love when indie games are made using GZDoom. I really do want to see this project take off. I just had reservations about RR's credentials, was all.

If there's anything that can be done, I have experience with map building (albeit more with Duke 3D type aesthetics, or Quake type aesthetics) but I could try with what you're trying to go for :D
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Re: MEMBRANE

Postby Scripten » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:11 am

InsanityBringer wrote:Well, after all of this, it seems that RR's gone, as the Indiegogo page now mentions Don as the sole developer.

I really would love to see Don succeed here, he's put together a pretty nice looking world, and definitely has the talent to make good things.


Yes, I agree. Also, because of this, might it be a good idea to shelve this particular thread until Don gets the chance to make his own?
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