Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:10 am

SanyaWaffles wrote:I will give a more personal example of why UI changes without warning can cause disorientation and people not being keen with it:

The two control panels in Windows 10.

The fact there's two is confusing. The fact you can do some things in one but not both - is frustrating. The fact you can't access both with ease, just the modern one... yeah you see my point.

That can be very cojnfusing and frustrating, especially if you knew how to do it the old wayby heart and the new way is more complex.


... and this should be seen as a great example of the old axiom "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
And yet, Microsoft went on their merry way, taking the well-liked Windows 7 and hacked the user interface to pieces, for the sole reason that they wanted to get people used to how their mobile products work. Well, the end result is, people still use Windows 7, Windows 8 will remain a footnote in history and Microsoft had to backpedal a lot on Windows 10 (sadly not fully) and their mobile products are dead meat. And without the free upgrade Windows 10 wouldn't have fared any better than 8.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby kodi » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:17 am

Microsoft's core problem is "design by committee" I believe.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:17 am

The problem with Windows 8 was corporate agenda. They wanted to achieve something specific, screw the collateral damage. Fortunately the persons responsible for these things are no longer there, but their legacy will live on because if they backpedalled now it'd be seen as failure by stupid investors, which we know are the only people that really matter.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby kodi » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:31 am

Graf Zahl wrote:The problem with Windows 8 was corporate agenda.

Well, that and design by committee goes hand in hand.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:41 am

That may be, but the problem with Windows 8 was not design by committee.
For mobile that interface wasn't that bad actually, but the decision to use the same crap on desktop PCs was not a design decision to begin with, it was a political decision dictated by corporate agenda with the sole motivation to try to get people used to it so Microsoft can sell more phones and tablets.

We all know it didn't work out, but the crap is here to stay.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby InsanityBringer » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:25 am

The thing I love the most about the split control panels is how certain options in the old control panel pop up a new control panel applet with limited functionality compared to the old one, but then there's a "advanced" option or some shit like that which pops up the old applet anyways.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Xabis » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:54 am

Max, thank you for your contributions and dedication over the years to bettering the tooling and the community.

Gzdb has been one of my favorite projects to track and (occasionally) contribute to; you will be missed.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Armaetus » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:10 pm

Great way of responding to criticism, MaxED. Sorry, knee-jerk reaction but TBH, the new texture browser is a bit bulky/clunky to use and I liked the older one better too.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby SanyaWaffles » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:40 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:... and this should be seen as a great example of the old axiom "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."


I was gonna quote that, but I felt it was too cliche'd - but sometimes cliches are right.

This is key here. I think alot of people were fine with the old texture browser with DB2/GZDB - just as they were with the old UI in Windows 7. Even Vista's UI was usable, it was the core OS (bloated hardware requirements, faulty drivers, video display woes, etc.) that people had issue with.

Graf Zahl wrote:The problem with Windows 8 was corporate agenda. They wanted to achieve something specific, screw the collateral damage. Fortunately the persons responsible for these things are no longer there, but their legacy will live on because if they backpedalled now it'd be seen as failure by stupid investors, which we know are the only people that really matter.


does it seem to me Microsoft is saying 'well ya got it for free, stop bitching' in essence kind of is a cop out since they kind of brute forced it on people. I know a friend who got it installed in the middle of a skype call without her consent, and she was scared she lost her computer for a moment.

Thankfully I was on the other end of the call when she called me on her cell phone.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Xtyfe » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:52 pm

Awesome timing guys, we just lost Randi, now this? MaxED is an important part of this community, we can't just drive them all away over petty things like this. What would happen if we lost Graf too? (Which has happened a few times already if I recall), because honestly this is how the community is going to die
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Rachael » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:08 pm

You really can't fight fire with fire in these cases. What needs to be said has already been said, and if you respond in kind with hostility it will only make people more hostile.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Xtyfe » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:12 pm

Eruanna wrote:You really can't fight fire with fire in these cases. What needs to be said has already been said, and if you respond in kind with hostility it will only make people more hostile.


Fair enough, though to clarify the tone of my post wasn't meant to be hostile.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby SanyaWaffles » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:37 pm

Xtyfe wrote:
Eruanna wrote:You really can't fight fire with fire in these cases. What needs to be said has already been said, and if you respond in kind with hostility it will only make people more hostile.


Fair enough, though to clarify the tone of my post wasn't meant to be hostile.


In a sense, it can be hard to gauge hostility. Like I felt your post was less out of hostility, but out of despair and concern. I guess I'm more nuanced in guaging things.

Though on the other hand, I can see why Euranna saw it as hostile, considering the context and how this thread got started. Tensions are still high it seems, and I can understand why.

It's why I try not to get too emotional when I type on forums. I've learned my lesson from another community. Especially when they throw any nuance out the window.

One thing I've noticed with the internet, you can sometimes mistake hostility for bluntness. Due to the lack of any visual or verbal cues. It's why all caps looks like shouting. It's why poe's law is a thing. It's hard to tell satire from actual crazy shit some people believe (one way or another). Without any indications, one might assume Jonathan Swift was actually promoting eating of babies.

I feel this contributes to alot of online discourse. Unreasonable, or even reasonable, lack of tone, context or intent, I mean.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Rachael » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:00 pm

Sanya is correct, and gave me a bit to think about with your post Xtyfe. I am sorry for misjudging your post. To be fair though, the way it was worded, it can't be that hard for someone else (who would be more affected by it) to make the same mistake.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby ibm5155 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:04 pm

Eruanna wrote:Easiest way to solve the problem: Start learning C++/C#. If your interest is in this project, it's still available on Github and can still be forked. Grab a compiler, start changing shit, merge in ZZYZX's pull request, rename it, and make it official. Now's a better time to do it than any. And if MaxED does come back, he can always upstream whatever you guys create if he feels it's stable and well-tested enough.

Yes - those languages are hard, but you're never going to learn them if you don't try. And the easiest thing to do is just to dive right in and break enough shit that you start figuring out what is linked to what.

C# Is easy actually , but c++ is just a jerry-rigged version of c with a ehhh objects model.
But I belive the worst part is to know how well writen the code is (like the build engine being heaven and the doom engine being a stuff made by angels) and also some specific área code (3D, UI, Parsers), and of course the language.

Actually, I could try to fix the acs parser in gzdoom builder so it could use again the map folder path for including acs files... (Don't count with me, it's a stuff that I may like to do, but I may not have the required knowledge to do it)

EDIT: Why the hell were you guys conplaining about the texture window? everything is there like before, faster and with more options...
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