Hexercise v0.0.6: The coldest of the fixes

[twinkieman93]

Really? I use Timon's Axe all the time. The punch-slash-punch combo kills Ettins and Slaughtaurs in the same amount of time as 2 normal hits. I don't think it really needs a buff since it gets outclassed by the dual wield anyways.

My thoughts on balancing this further:

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1. Ice Shards do need a buff as said above, I would double the RoF of the alt-fire and increase the damage of the primary fire enough to kill an Ettin at medium range in 1 hit.

2. Firestorm alt-fire is useless, I would rather spend that little bit extra mana using the primary fire than use the alt-fire and get hit for it currently. I would tweak it so that it can set fire to things all around you and have a little more range. Or you can make it a new attack, have the Cleric punch the ground and create a fire pillar and explode everything around him.

3. Arc of Death alt-fire sucks too. I would have made it so that it spawns mini storm clouds over monster's heads within a large radius of the player, and have it rain down lightning bolts as long as you hold the button down. Or you can give him chain lightning that bounces a certain number of times.

4. I mainly use Timon's Axe on the Fighter because of the HP I get back from the punches connecting from the life steal. I would remove life steal completely from this so it will give more reason to use the fists if you need HP.

5. Fighter Fists life steal is pretty high, I used the fists a lot against those annoying wraiths with the lava fireballs to use less Quartz Flasks. You can either lower the amount gained per punch, or only grant the life gained on kill instead of on hit. Or you can do a combination of both, say gain 1 HP per hit and 3 on kill.

6. Cleric shield could use a buff on the knock back distance of the shield bash. Would also be good if monsters took damage from impacting into walls or objects when shield bashed. An alternative is to allow a stun effect instead of knock back too.

I got plenty of other ideas for this, but it all depends on how far you are willing to go. If you decide you want to add extra content later on down the road, let me know. ^^

That's the issue, though; the punch-slash-punch uses NO MANA. It shouldn't be that strong, and if it is, then simply hitting things with the axe should do more damage to compensate. Also, dual-wielding isn't quite so powerful as you seem to think, I end up taking a lot of damage I normally wouldn't when using it because the hammer is rather slow in melee, and leaves you open for retaliation. Not to mention you can't punch while dual-wielding. Honestly, besides the cool factor, I don't feel like there's much use for dual-wielding. Maybe if you could actually use them as if you were wielding them alone, however, with primary swinging the axe for a powered blow, and alt-fire throwing the hammer... eh, something to think about.

Now for my own list that lists my thoughts on your list.

1. The Mage should not have close-ranged instant kill capability. He is not supposed to be getting close to enemies; giving him what is essentially the Super Shotgun with a higher rate of fire is NOT a good idea, especially since it would make the Fighter completely obsolete. Honestly, I'm not sure why he gets a shotgun-type weapon in the first place, as it doesn't really fit his role. At most, I would say he should two-shot things with its primary fire, and his altfire is just fine where it is; you've got the \m/ ARC OF DEATH \m/ for long-distance attacks with some oomph.

2. This I can't really comment on, as I don't play the Cleric too much. Never been a fan of going down the middle of the road, if you get my meaning. There is an issue with your punching the ground suggestion though, and it's that I'm pretty sure he can't use TEXTURE tomfoolery to make a Cleric fist for the purpose of punching the ground. It's awesome, yes, but I think he wants this mod to remain as light as possible. After all, it's called HeXercise, so it should be lithe and graceful, not fat and bloated.

3. The alt-fire is good, I'm not sure why you think it sucks. Sure, it's not the most visually impressive thing, maybe some range-limited particle-style lighting actually going out and hitting things would be neat, but as far as actually killing things goes it's pretty solid. Great for when things get up in your business while you're busy \m/ BRINGING DOWN THE THUNDER \m/ on some distant enemies.

4. You can get back HP faster with the fists, though, as you noted in your next point. That's why you would use the fists over the axe, when you need to go full tank.

5. So you say you need to give more use to the fists, and then say you need to take away the one big use for the fists, which is tanking. Okay, sure, whatever you say.

6. It already does kinda stun them; from what I've seen, the monster can't really move for a bit after they land from the knockback. I do feel like it isn't too terribly useful, though.

[Valherran]

My response:

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That's the issue, though; the punch-slash-punch uses NO MANA. It shouldn't be that strong, and if it is, then simply hitting things with the axe should do more damage to compensate. Also, dual-wielding isn't quite so powerful as you seem to think, I end up taking a lot of damage I normally wouldn't when using it because the hammer is rather slow in melee, and leaves you open for retaliation. Not to mention you can't punch while dual-wielding. Honestly, besides the cool factor, I don't feel like there's much use for dual-wielding. Maybe if you could actually use them as if you were wielding them alone, however, with primary swinging the axe for a powered blow, and alt-fire throwing the hammer... eh, something to think about.

Ohhh that's right, it didn't use mana in that combo, I forgot about that. In that case buff it enough to kill an Ettin. As for the dual wielding, it was a way to use the melee weapons without needing mana. And I used them alot to save up for Quietus spam on an army when needed. However yes, it is kind of slow, and you may take damage killing a room of mobs, but how would you go about buffing them if you buff Timon's Axe for slot 2? Increasing their damage or ROF may render the axe useless because they cost no mana. Maybe they need different combo mechanics to prevent this? It may help.

1. The Mage should not have close-ranged instant kill capability. He is not supposed to be getting close to enemies; giving him what is essentially the Super Shotgun with a higher rate of fire is NOT a good idea, especially since it would make the Fighter completely obsolete. Honestly, I'm not sure why he gets a shotgun-type weapon in the first place, as it doesn't really fit his role. At most, I would say he should two-shot things with its primary fire, and his alt fire is just fine where it is; you've got the \m/ ARC OF DEATH \m/ for long-distance attacks with some oomph.

He already has something worse than the Frost Shards and Arc of Death combined, and that is the Sapphire Wand. I used this more than the Frost Shards because it was way more effective. The Frost Shard's alt-fire damage is so low that it was only good for killing Ifrits, but why use that when you got the Sapphire Wand? The primary fire also takes too much to kill an Ettin, 3 shots up close, 2 if you are really lucky? Plus the Frost Touch was removed so you cannot use this effectively. So sorry, but no, I disagree.

3. The alt-fire is good, I'm not sure why you think it sucks. Sure, it's not the most visually impressive thing, maybe some range-limited particle-style lighting actually going out and hitting things would be neat, but as far as actually killing things goes it's pretty solid. Great for when things get up in your business while you're busy \m/ BRINGING DOWN THE THUNDER \m/ on some distant enemies.

I say it sucks because the damage and mana cost to use the alt-fire is not worth it. It costs less to use the primary fire and it kills an Ettin, as the alt fire uses more than double the mana to perform the same feat. But, why use that alt-fire when you got the Sapphire Wand? The only time I ever used the Arc of Death alt fire, was when I was walking into a tight space and running into an enemy before I can switch weapons. If that is the only use it has, then I say it needs to get changed.

2. This I can't really comment on, as I don't play the Cleric too much. Never been a fan of going down the middle of the road, if you get my meaning. There is an issue with your punching the ground suggestion though, and it's that I'm pretty sure he can't use TEXTURE tomfoolery to make a Cleric fist for the purpose of punching the ground. It's awesome, yes, but I think he wants this mod to remain as light as possible. After all, it's called HeXercise, so it should be lithe and graceful, not fat and bloated.

The punching the ground to make a fire pillar was just an idea, he can just raise his hands like he normally does to create one for all I care.

4. You can get back HP faster with the fists, though, as you noted in your next point. That's why you would use the fists over the axe, when you need to go full tank.

5. So you say you need to give more use to the fists, and then say you need to take away the one big use for the fists, which is tanking. Okay, sure, whatever you say.

It's not taking away the life steal, it's altering how it is acquired. You shouldn't be able to stand there and gain all of your HP back so easily. There should be a little bit of skill involved to do so.

6. It already does kinda stun them; from what I've seen, the monster can't really move for a bit after they land from the knockback. I do feel like it isn't too terribly useful, though.

Shield Bash only knocks them back maybe 2 feet tops, and they just kind of run in place for a second and then they are normal. If you walk into them after you shield bash them, they attack you. So no, that is not a stun. A stun is when you cannot move and attack, what you are thinking of is a snare, which is useless.

Edited my previous post, forgot to mention something.

[le_L]

Just so we're on the same page, are you guys using the latest release? Some of these concerns I thought I had hotfixed. At any rate, here's a release candidate for v0.0.7.

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-Shield bash throws opponents slightly farther.
-Fixed Serpent Staff's damage. I had forgotten about it during the de-randomising.
-Firestorm alt-fire has been buffed.
-Frost shard damage is now 3.
-Doubled the Axe's damage, including mana-free swings.

[Valherran]

Just so we're on the same page, are you guys using the latest release? Some of these concerns I thought I had hotfixed. At any rate, here's a release candidate for v0.0.7.

If you are referring to the one you put up a few days ago, then yes I am. I will check this out and get back to you. Do you have a change log handy?

[le_L]

Heh, I unintentionally ninja'd one in just as you posted.

[Valherran]

Ok, just did a speed run through 7P with everyone.

The changes in the log are there, but Timon's Axe feels unchanged, still takes the same amount of hits etc. to kill an Ettin.

[le_L]

Hold on a second, I made a mess of it. That was meant to be the PK3 file, not the long-outdated WAD. Download has been fixed.

[DoomRater]

After I make Reese's peanut butter bars from this box thinger I will test!

Edit: Ahhh that feels much better. Maybe allow mana usage for the axe swing in dual wield mode so it can keep up with the hammer, but that's it really.

Edit 2: Tried out Cleric. Yeah I can still sometimes kill an ettin in 2 hits with the mace. I'd highly prefer if the spread was 3-6 hits to kill an ettin. Range feels good though, I can actually stay out of harm's way most of the time while swatting them. That's kinda how cleric was played in vanilla Hexen anyway- you took advantage of the fact you had huge reach over the fighter. And hell, any reason to make some more use of the cleric's serpent staff is a good thing.

Edit 3: tried out Mage. one shotting ettins with the frost shards?! I don't always have to hit them with everything either. I'd prefer if it was at least two, but the shards also broke the ice statues. Well, if the altfire ice shards always broke statues that would be enough for me. I hate the ice statues and prefer the Samsara behavior.

Edit 4: Not sure why but using the firestorm ability as mage didn't work when I tried to kill some of those nasty ice creatures in the Guardian of Steel trap.

[le_L]

Of note: the Frost Shards had their mana cost doubled as well, to 6 per shot.

Also to keep in mind is that as well as the normal swings, the axe's manaless swings had their damage doubled. In effect, dual wielding works just like it did a few builds ago.

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Cleric's Mace has been weakened. Ettins now take 3 to 4 hits.
Mage's Firestorm is fixed. I'd experimented with a Firestorm animation and I forgot to put it back as it was.

[SamVision]

Sorry for the bump, but the ability to use the Quietus without mana should be added to this at one point, I would do it myself but Hexercise is difficult to modify.

[DoomRater]

You already have axe + hammer combo for manaless weaponry, why does Quietus need to be manaless?

[SamVision]

Because it just feels like something is missing. A sword that you can only swing with magic just doesn't seem right.

[Hareton]

How did you do these screen shake effects when hitting with a gauntlet, mace and staff? I want to disable them and I removed a_quake lines but it isn't it. Also wizard's fast shaking weapons are just annoying, you should definately fix it. The rest of the mod is great.
edit: I found it, it was a_pitch. Dark Messiah did the weapon impact effect right, but in Doom I doubt it could be achieved.

[twinkieman93]

Because it just feels like something is missing. A sword that you can only swing with magic just doesn't seem right.

I think I have a fairly good reason why you can't swing Quietus without mana, and it's that the thing is essentially a magical chainsword; if you look closely at the blade, particularly its tip, it looks BLUNT. It can be assumed from this that the sword itself doesn't do much in the way of cutting, the magical fire wreathing the blade provides it with its supreme cutting power.

Still, you could argue that Baratus could wield what is essentially a heavy stick without mana and still be a killing machine. He murders things with his fists, after all. But consider that you find the weapon in three seperate pieces? Surely, even if Baratus were a skilled weaponsmith(I wouldn't doubt this, mind you), he wouldn't have the time to properly reforge it in the field. There's too many things that need killing! No, he probably just quickly put everything together, and if he were to use Quietus without mana, it would shatter again on impact with its first ettin skull.

Call it rationalizing a somewhat silly decision on the part of Raven Software, but hey, it adds a bit of flavor to a world that's fairly lore-light.

[Triple S]

I always felt that the thing was merged together magically but doesn't require it to stay together. After all, when you weld two pipes together you don't need to keep applying heat to keep them melded together, right?